Re: Black metal production tips? (NEW samples)

[FUKKET]

so this is mainly directed at Haf but also anyone who makes music & knows shit.



I'm now about to start laying down & working on the production of my home black metal project.

I've written & midi/demo'ed about 17 tracks.

The compositions are a mix of Emperor, Burzum & the more modern avant-garde vibes of DSO but more like the the gloryhole era Norwegian BM.



Pretty happy with some of the tunes, especially with the orchestration i did one a few (a few will have orchestral backing kinda like Dimmu).



As Haf knows, i've always been a huge fan of his material and production work.

The Harvest, Wormlust etc etc...



Listening to the Wormlust tracks

(forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1884)

I really love the production.



So on "Seven Paths" i have a few questions (I'll probably discover these as I start recording & mixing, but thought I'd ask for a heads up to save time):



Q: Did you use Ezdrummer on "Seven Paths" ? If so, what items did you use? I can't recognise the snare or other bits (which is good).

also, any mixing tips?



How do you get that 'creepy' ambience to the whole mix? Do you throw a mild reverb or cavernous space to the mixes?



any mixing tips? I'm thinking old BM the drums are mixed back & very low & roomy, but say modern Dimmu, the are very in-your-face & triggered.



Any other tips or ideas for production of black metal styled music?



stay tuned for some demo or rough mixes.

I'm going to have a go at 2 versions. One using Ezdrummer & one using BFD2.

I'm going to choose the one that works for the production the best, or has the most black metal vibe.



I'm guessing my final product will sound more modern and DSO than 90's Nwy BM, but we'll see.



thanks guys, looking forward to peoples info & insight.







(while working on the BM thing, i'll also be working on 4 other recordings - new Slimeys + a doom-blues thing + pop-funk album + the ever-going remix project)

[nigtik]

cut out all lows and mids, put your treble all the way up, do not eq anything, and record through a cellphone.

[Tyreese BIGGUMS]

Drums on the Wormlust track definitely sound like Superior Drummer 2 to me. There's the undeniable crack/whip of the snare that comes from the standard Avatar SD2 kit.



Mix sounds like it has slight reverb on it, but there's definitely a lot on the drums (or they're just mixed back)



The guitar tone is very mid and high oriented, doesn't sound like there's too much bass in it - and it has less gain than you'd think.



When we (Beyond Mind) record the material for a second EP, I'll upload a clip of it. On our myspace are tracks off our first EP - drums were programmed and all guitars/bass was tracked via DI and then amp sims were used. IMO the drum sound and scratch guitar sounds I've gotten now are far better than the ones on the first EP.

[baron von blondle]

[quote name="eargazm"]cut out all lows and mids, put your treble all the way up, do not eq anything, and record through a cellphone.[/quote]



or 4 track cassette recorder and bounce down every track as you do it to make sure it hisses like a splendid mate of mine

[Mr. P]

[quote name="baron von blondle"]
[quote name="eargazm"]cut out all lows and mids, put your treble all the way up, do not eq anything, and record through a cellphone.[/quote]



or 4 track cassette recorder and bounce down every track as you do it to make sure it hisses like a splendid mate of mine [/quote]



I agree with Baron, the cellphone is too intelligent technology for BM music.

[nigtik]

[quote name="baron von blondle"]
[quote name="eargazm"]cut out all lows and mids, put your treble all the way up, do not eq anything, and record through a cellphone.[/quote]



or 4 track cassette recorder and bounce down every track as you do it to make sure it hisses like a splendid mate of mine [/quote]

or a hand held tape recorder that people use to take notes in college with

[Haunty]

[quote name="eargazm"]
[quote name="baron von blondle"]
[quote name="eargazm"]cut out all lows and mids, put your treble all the way up, do not eq anything, and record through a cellphone.[/quote]



or 4 track cassette recorder and bounce down every track as you do it to make sure it hisses like a splendid mate of mine [/quote]

or a hand held tape recorder that people use to take notes in college with[/quote]



microcassette

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Pentelesh"]
[quote name="baron von blondle"]
[quote name="eargazm"]cut out all lows and mids, put your treble all the way up, do not eq anything, and record through a cellphone.[/quote]



or 4 track cassette recorder and bounce down every track as you do it to make sure it hisses like a splendid mate of mine [/quote]



I agree with Baron, the cellphone is too intelligent technology for BM music.[/quote]



haha, yeah.

I was going to run most tracks through my tape player to make it hiss and add yucky air.

But I guess that sound is for the gloryhole era BM sound.

Anyway, i'm going to upload some smaples of sound ideas & see what everyone thinks is better.



he'll maybe i'll do 2 versions of the album, one 'gloryhole era -dark-throne-ghetto-blaster' sound and one '2000's-making-hiss-recordings-is-not-kvlt-&-grim-anymore'

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Tyreese BIGGUMS"]Drums on the Wormlust track definitely sound like Superior Drummer 2 to me.[/quote]



I'm in the process of d/l'ing that now actually.

I guess i'll find out.



The Wormlust split is definitely Ez with DFH.

[Shredlord]

Be certain that the mics are not in the same room with the amps and drums.

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Shredlord"]Be certain that the mics are not in the same room with the amps and drums.[/quote]



considering it will all be vsti that's no problem

[User]

definitely post your progress fukket, i want to hear

[Syysysyd]

wow so much preparation. is this for a label or just your own entertainment purposes? 'cuz i write and record everything in just a few hours haha.

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Antonius Block"]wow so much preparation. is this for a label or just your own entertainment purposes? 'cuz i write and record everything in just a few hours haha.[/quote]



own entertainment purposes



it's my hobbie.

when not at work on my day job and not playing gigs professionally and night & on weekends, I'm in my room making my music.

all styles.

but I've had people of late say i should release my stuff.

i just have to find that label!



for now i put stuff up on my blog.

[FUKKET]

So here's a section of a song, all demo just to see what guitar tone works best.

I bounced it with a number of different guitar tones.

I can't decide which one is better, so I thought I'd see what you all say.



Ignore everything else (drums, bass, choir, the actual riff if it sucks...)



They are labelled clearly from A-J (F was dumped, hence why it's missing), so just reply with which you think is best, or your fav 2 or 3 if you can't pick one.



later I'll do a similar post with different choir pads. There's a few I'm tossing up to use, but once the guitar sound is chosen, then I'll mix the different choirs against that tone & see which you guys thinks works best together.



thanks gang!

[methodrone]

Q: Did you use Ezdrummer on "Seven Paths" ? If so, what items did you use? I can't recognise the snare or other bits (which is good).

also, any mixing tips?



I use toontrack Superior 2. I will be switching to using a real drummer the next time though.



How do you get that 'creepy' ambience to the whole mix? Do you throw a mild reverb or cavernous space to the mixes?



that would probably be the synths I use, I keep them barely audible and sometimes I spend up to a few hours to getting the right sound. Only to bury it in the mix.

What I find works is playing a choir vst in a really low register and distorting it. The beginning of Seven paths is just that. Plus I use the vst Majken´s chimera alot, distort that one as well.



Majken chimera

<!-- m -->http://www.majken.se/index.php?option=c ... 3&Itemid=9<!-- m -->

Magnus choir

<!-- m -->http://www.syntheway.com/choir.htm<!-- m -->



I don´t use reverb on any of it except maybe the synths when im looking for a particular sound, even the guitars are dry. I just have 4 guitar tracks -100,-from 60 to 80,from 60 to 80 and 100. I let the atmospheres create the soundscape and also the size of the room for the drums should be natural. I dont really like the cavernous stuff and keeping everything to a mininum gives a better in your face value.



and yeah i use two vst for the guitar sound, I found the most crappy sounding/low cpu ones and make them work.



so to sum it up, I personally would keep it mininal and let the synths be the foundation, and im talking just maybe one track of synth. But I would stay clear of having it too loud or cheesy.

[Tyreese BIGGUMS]

[quote name="FUKKET"]So here's a section of a song, all demo just to see what guitar tone works best.

I bounced it with a number of different guitar tones.

I can't decide which one is better, so I thought I'd see what you all say.



Ignore everything else (drums, bass, choir, the actual riff if it throws shit on the fire...)



They are labelled clearly from A-J (F was dumped, hence why it's missing), so just reply with which you think is best, or your fav 2 or 3 if you can't pick one.



later I'll do a similar post with different choir pads. There's a few I'm tossing up to use, but once the guitar sound is chosen, then I'll mix the different choirs against that tone & see which you guys thinks works best together.



thanks gang! [/quote]



Definitely not E, far too fizzy (though if you're going for a Thorns kinda vibe, it fits I guess.)

I like B and J the best, as they are the clearest.



If you'd like I could mix one of the tracks for you when you record, as long as you provide me with DIs and a MIDI of the drums/synths (possibly a bounced version of the synths as well, if you're selective with that tone.)



Beyond Mind

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/NDW_ROS_Reamp.mp3<!-- m -->

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/Zvish-testmix.mp3.mp3<!-- m -->



I mixed all the Beyond Mind tracks (played bass as well), and I mixed those other two tracks. First one had DI guitars but a bounced drums/bass track. Second had DI'd guitars (going through I believe Nick Crow's 8505). Drums on the second track were all real except the kicks (which are SD2, the kicks they recorded sounded like shit and they didn't trigger.)

[FUKKET]

I use toontrack Superior 2. I will be switching to using a real drummer the next time though.

nice.

What I find works is playing a choir vst in a really low register and distorting it. The beginning of Seven paths is just that. Plus I use the vst Majken´s chimera alot, distort that one as well.

thanks for the link, i'll check it out

Magnus choir

<!-- m -->http://www.syntheway.com/choir.htm<!-- m -->

Ah yes, I use this and have been for some years now.

it's great.

I'm also mixing this with some other cheap synths.

I don´t use reverb on any of it except maybe the synths when im looking for a particular sound, even the guitars are dry. I just have 4 guitar tracks -100,-from 60 to 80,from 60 to 80 and 100. I let the atmospheres create the soundscape and also the size of the room for the drums should be natural. I dont really like the cavernous stuff and keeping everything to a mininum gives a better in your face value.



and yeah i use two vst for the guitar sound, I found the most crappy sounding/low cpu ones and make them work.



so to sum it up, I personally would keep it mininal and let the synths be the foundation, and im talking just maybe one track of synth. But I would stay clear of having it too loud or cheesy.

thanks for all the info Haf!

cheers :

grimsanta:

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Tyreese BIGGUMS"]

Definitely not E, far too fizzy (though if you're going for a Thorns kinda vibe, it fits I guess.)

I like B and J the best, as they are the clearest.



If you'd like I could mix one of the tracks for you when you record, as long as you provide me with DIs and a MIDI of the drums/synths (possibly a bounced version of the synths as well, if you're selective with that tone.)



Beyond Mind

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/NDW_ROS_Reamp.mp3<!-- m -->

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/Zvish-testmix.mp3.mp3<!-- m -->



I mixed all the Beyond Mind tracks (played bass as well), and I mixed those other two tracks. First one had DI guitars but a bounced drums/bass track. Second had DI'd guitars (going through I believe Nick Crow's 8505). Drums on the second track were all real except the kicks (which are SD2, the kicks they recorded sounded like shit and they didn't trigger.)[/quote]



thanks dude

i'll get in contact further down the track.

d/l'ing those mp3s now. will let you know what i think.

[FUKKET]

[quote name="FUKKET"]

d/l'ing those mp3s now. will let you know what i think.

[/quote]



chunky stuff man.

nice phat git sounds

[Syysysyd]

[quote name="Tyreese BIGGUMS"]
[quote name="FUKKET"]So here's a section of a song, all demo just to see what guitar tone works best.

I bounced it with a number of different guitar tones.

I can't decide which one is better, so I thought I'd see what you all say.



Ignore everything else (drums, bass, choir, the actual riff if it throws shit on the fire...)



They are labelled clearly from A-J (F was dumped, hence why it's missing), so just reply with which you think is best, or your fav 2 or 3 if you can't pick one.



later I'll do a similar post with different choir pads. There's a few I'm tossing up to use, but once the guitar sound is chosen, then I'll mix the different choirs against that tone & see which you guys thinks works best together.



thanks gang! [/quote]



Definitely not E, far too fizzy (though if you're going for a Thorns kinda vibe, it fits I guess.)

I like B and J the best, as they are the clearest.



If you'd like I could mix one of the tracks for you when you record, as long as you provide me with DIs and a MIDI of the drums/synths (possibly a bounced version of the synths as well, if you're selective with that tone.)



Beyond Mind

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/NDW_ROS_Reamp.mp3<!-- m -->

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/Zvish-testmix.mp3.mp3<!-- m -->



I mixed all the Beyond Mind tracks (played bass as well), and I mixed those other two tracks. First one had DI guitars but a bounced drums/bass track. Second had DI'd guitars (going through I believe Nick Crow's 8505). Drums on the second track were all real except the kicks (which are SD2, the kicks they recorded sounded like shit and they didn't trigger.)[/quote]



ahahaha, you mixed killswitch engage?

[methodrone]

tyreese, could you maybe reamp some guitar stuff for me? reply in pm

[Tyreese BIGGUMS]

[quote name="Antonius Block"]
[quote name="Tyreese BIGGUMS"]
[quote name="FUKKET"]So here's a section of a song, all demo just to see what guitar tone works best.

I bounced it with a number of different guitar tones.

I can't decide which one is better, so I thought I'd see what you all say.



Ignore everything else (drums, bass, choir, the actual riff if it throws shit on the fire...)



They are labelled clearly from A-J (F was dumped, hence why it's missing), so just reply with which you think is best, or your fav 2 or 3 if you can't pick one.



later I'll do a similar post with different choir pads. There's a few I'm tossing up to use, but once the guitar sound is chosen, then I'll mix the different choirs against that tone & see which you guys thinks works best together.



thanks gang! [/quote]



Definitely not E, far too fizzy (though if you're going for a Thorns kinda vibe, it fits I guess.)

I like B and J the best, as they are the clearest.



If you'd like I could mix one of the tracks for you when you record, as long as you provide me with DIs and a MIDI of the drums/synths (possibly a bounced version of the synths as well, if you're selective with that tone.)



Beyond Mind

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/NDW_ROS_Reamp.mp3<!-- m -->

<!-- m -->http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1186608/Zvish-testmix.mp3.mp3<!-- m -->



I mixed all the Beyond Mind tracks (played bass as well), and I mixed those other two tracks. First one had DI guitars but a bounced drums/bass track. Second had DI'd guitars (going through I believe Nick Crow's 8505). Drums on the second track were all real except the kicks (which are SD2, the kicks they recorded sounded like shit and they didn't trigger.)[/quote]



ahahaha, you mixed killswitch engage?[/quote]



Someone on the Sneap forum recorded the DIs as a test of his interface (or his guitar, I don't remember which), so I took the chance to fuck around with them. Why not?

[Syysysyd]

so wait, what exactly did you do to "mix" them? you just took the two tracks and messed around with volume and EQ?

[Tyreese BIGGUMS]

[quote name="Antonius Block"]so wait, what exactly did you do to "mix" them? you just took the two tracks and messed around with volume and EQ?[/quote]



For the KSE: Someone posted the DIs of the guitars (rhythms were quadtracked, lead was single, clean gtrs were double tracked.) He also posted a bounced backing track of the bass and drums. If he didn't, I would have done my own drum mix and recorded the bass - but alas, he did so whatever. I took the DIs, found good sounds for them via amp sims, and mixed it the best I could.



For the Zvish: I used amp sims on the bass and guitar tracks, used SD2 for the kicks, and mixed it the best I could. It's not my favorite mix in the world but I didn't want to sit down with drumagog and replace all the drums and shit. That track was for a contest on the Sneap forum, as a fellating lover of that band said they wanted someone to mix it for fairly cheap and they heard mixes from there and loved them.



For Beyond Mind: drums were programmed and replaced via SD2. everything else was DI with amp sims. our next EP (we're set to record in a week or two) will have far better tones imo...

[Bathsalt Zombie]

[quote name="nell's tits"]
[quote name="Shredlord"]Be certain that the mics are not in the same room with the amps and drums.[/quote]



funny you said that, because there's a new "american" technique where the entire band travels through time into early era of the gloryhole norway, burns down a church, and plays an album into the telephone and onto a voice messaging machine at the brass mug in tampa florida.



then, the "producer" who stayed behind records it on a karaoke machine and releases it as obscurely as possible.[/quote]



You do know that the brass mug is a venue/bar right?

[Haunty]

Yeah, but they must have an answering machine somewhere.

[Hugo.]

Make sure for the love of god that its recorded in a basement toilet and that there is tinfoil EVERYWHERE.

[FUKKET]

hey guys



based on replies I had to the guitar tone tests, I decided to do one more test before I pick the one.

Here is another section, a dark break in a song - played with the tones that received the most votes.



which of this lot do you think is best?

<!-- ia0 -->BM_git2_tests.zip<!-- ia0 -->

thanks

[Syysysyd]

ahaha dude, i could get those tones in 5 mins with guitar rig. just record the damn thing already.

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Antonius Block"]ahaha dude, i could get those tones in 5 mins with guitar rig. just record the damn thing already. [/quote]





they're all git rig

[Tyreese BIGGUMS]

guitar rig blows. I'm telling you, grab bte's vintage tubescreamer, nick crows 8505 and some catharsis impulses and you'll be set

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Tyreese BIGGUMS"]guitar rig blows. I'm telling you, grab bte's vintage tubescreamer, nick crows 8505 and some catharsis impulses and you'll be set[/quote]



I've actually got all those, but have never have had a play.

i will have a go

[FUKKET]

[quote name="Tyreese BIGGUMS"]I'm telling you, grab bte's vintage tubescreamer, nick crows 8505 and some catharsis impulses and you'll be set[/quote]



i've been playing with some impulse stuff since i got home.

damn, they sound good.

now i'm going to see what i can get that will work for this BM thing.