Question for Verbal, how is gender viewed in the science community

[Grudge]

I remember you saying that you were brought up on either biology or chemistry, and you once explain how the sex is determined at conception.

Is this gender issue these days looked upon with disdain, or is there a path towards acceptance? How are biologists/scientists navigating around this issue?

[Verbal]

Sex + gender are two words that throughout my school, college, and work, and everyday life, I (and everyone I have ever met) have used interchangeably. And meaning the obvious usual sense.

The objective facts are that at fertilisation, the single cell, newly created human organism receives either an X or a Y chromosome from the sperm cell. This combines with the X that was already in the unfertilised egg cell. Then the new single celled human is either XX or XY. This then determines subsequent anatomical and physiological development. This leads to the observed obvious gross anatomic and physiologic differences between the two "possibilites". This is pretty basic and undisputed biology. And I don't think there really is much to say beyond this from a science point of view. Whether or not the two "possibilities" are different "sexes" or "genders" is a matter of semantics. The name chosen is clearly irrelevant to the biology. But as I said, they happen to be the typical names.


Except in extraordinarily rare cases (I shall mention because it inevitably comes up in such discussions) there are problems with the normal development and you can have cases where a baby is born XY and anatomically female, for example. Emphasis: very rare. And to dwell on whether such a person is "male" or "female" is an ignorant, meaningless debate. They are whatever they are. As in, they have a certain genetic make up, a certain anatomical make up, and certain physiology, etc. They don't fit into the typical definition of male or female, so from a biological point of view, in these rare cases, it makes most sense to just list their properties. It is like debating whether a virus is "living" or "nonliving". It is a nonsensical debate. Life has a certain intuitive meaning familiar to everyone. Biologists try to capture the notion with a certain list of properties. We then encounter a thing (viruses) that have some, but not all the properties. It makes most sense to just document the properties that they have and don't have. I mean, you could change the definition of living if you want, but my point is that to debate whether or not they are "living" as if the word living has some intrinsic meaning to be discovered is profoundly ignorant.

The above is my summary of the objective "science" of the issue.

I have a f.riend who works in the US in medicine and he pointed out this whole recent gender/sex distinction did-you-just-assume-my-gender debate thing to me earlier this year. I'd never heard any mention of it before then. (As a side note - I haven't worked in medicine for about 3 years now.) I try not to waste time thinking about it. I can tell it'll just piss me off enormously and I'd rather focus my attention on more constructive things.

[jawn galliano]

gender as distinct from sex was a subject discussed in a genetics course i took ten years ago and it wasn't a new concept then either

[Verbal]

People are free to choose to use the word to mean something different. If enough people start using it a certain way, then the meaning of the word shifts. It can end up with several different usages and meanings. That's how language evolves.

What does not make sense is to debate the meaning of words as if they themselves have some intrinsic meaning.

If people are having a conversation about an issue like this, where different people use words in different ways, the solution is to just clarify what people mean for the purpose of the discussion. Or better still, try and just avoid the word altogether.

People seem to constantly end up debating the meaning of words instead debating the actual issue.

[Verbal]

I will add another example of people debating semantics/missing the point..

In abortion debates, people often debate whether at what point the developing human becomes "human" or "a person", etc. As I mentioned above, the facts are not complicated. It is a distinct human organism at fertilisation. The issue is clearly whether or not and in what circumstances abortion should be allowed. The name chosen is entirely irrelevant. But so many people end up just debating the meanings of words.

[Verbal]

Fuck you for having me waste an hour thinking about this!

[zim]

yeah i don't even want to read it

[zim]

i did tho

[vO)))id]

I never seen Verbal post such elaborate answers on the bard before.

[User]

verbal was goaded into substance by imran's innocence and reasonable manners

[Verbal]

why did i write this

[Grudge]

These were good posts. I feel the issue has become more inflamed since this thread was created. Male to female transexual atheletes are now participating alongside "non-transexual" female atheletes and outcompeting them. Corporations have become very widely accommodating now of "identity" (your gender is what you say it is) - at least in the US. It's an easy change, compared to actually giving people a raise and pensions.

I'm tempted to call this a fad that will pass, but it's going to clash hard with the values of the majority of the world.

[Grudge]

I also notice that this debate has become harder to have without incurring censorship or condemnation if you are opposed to the overblown importance transexualism has taken in modern society in proportion to the actual numbers of transexual people in any society.

[Verbal]

I also notice that this debate has become harder to have without incurring censorship or condemnation if you are opposed to the overblown importance transexualism has taken in modern society in proportion to the actual numbers of transexual people in any society.

i get that impression too, but its hard to know how accurate this impression is

[rhino]

[Verbal]

i hate southpark

[Noyka]

Counselors here as most in the us have to use affirming therapy. I don’t think anyone denies gender dysphoria is legit (albeit in small numbers) but the fact people can literally transition to their desired gender and back in a year is wild to say the least.

[Verbal]

Counselors here as most in the us have to use affirming therapy.

what does that mean?

I don’t think anyone denies gender dysphoria is legit (albeit in small numbers)

what makes it legit versus not legit?

[jawn galliano]

I also notice that this debate has become harder to have without incurring censorship or condemnation if you are opposed to the overblown importance transexualism has taken in modern society in proportion to the actual numbers of transexual people in any society.

i mean sure condemnation will happen on social media, that is just the nature of public discourse now. anything and anyone that gets sufficient attention will be condemned on social media and most of the time, that just doesn't matter at all. i think it is a bit of a stretch to say that those advancing viewpoints that are dismissive of, or outright hostile to trans people are being silenced!

[Verbal]

i still dont understand what people mean if they say they "identify" as a man when they are a woman, and vice versa

[Noyka]

Counselors here as most in the us have to use affirming therapy.

what does that mean?

I don’t think anyone denies gender dysphoria is legit (albeit in small numbers)

what makes it legit versus not legit?

Affirming therapy is where in the US therapists, psychologists, and even psychiatrists have to affirm the desired gender of a patient including a child. They aren’t looking for potential root causes like anxiety or projected depression instead they simply accept the patient at their word and basically start them on hrt and eventually surgery much quicker than most realize in a lot of cases.

Gender dysphoria lwhit be. Not legit: Meaning that there is a disorder where people legit see themselves as the opposite gender and aren’t faking aren’t being teens grabbing onto a fad, aren’t going to be harmed by the treatment because the root cause isn’t dysphoria but something else.

I forgot you’re a doctor (if I remember right) if I’m off tell me

[Verbal]

that affirming thing is hardly true

[Noyka]

That’s good if it isn’t true, I’ve been reading about it abs it sounds insane. Maybe it’s only practiced in some clinics who knows.

Based on what I’ve heard I’m willing to believe anything these days.

[Verbal]

if youre just speculating, then why say it as if you know for a fact it is true

why do so many people fucking do that

[Noyka]

I thought it was true based on my research people fuck up

[Verbal]

[User]

gender is important but ya know, there's other shit going on

[zim]

gleeso are you still out of medicine? if so, did you switch careers and do you like what you're doing now?

[Grudge]

It's interesting how far things escalated on the gender issue since 2019 when I created the topic. I think I had an inkling then that this was becoming an important issue, but fast forward to 2025 it's so much bigger.

[jawn galliano]

it's interesting that besides being an obtuse rationalist dullard, gleeso is also a fucking bet welcher and all-around coward

[Mesarthim]

I’m still in the Mind Your Own Damn Business camp when it comes to the issue of gender.

[User]

who needs gender fascism when you can have a trade war

[Noyka]

I’m still in the Mind Your Own Damn Business camp when it comes to the issue of gender.

This until ot affects other people like obvious cases of men abusing it for sports going ons and bathroom purposes not as common as the right makes it out to be but it does happen.