doctor's advice

[cat hallucination]

really though, you can choose to be responsible for it. start with environmentalism. do you recycle? do you use eternal canvas bags instead of plastic bags? do you pay back your government college loans or do you default?

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm-Flailing Tube Man]

those are different, as one's involvement is clear.



but show me what fucking contract I signed that had anything to do with the national debt. why can't I buy a couch and send you the invoice?

[Abzu]

You just changed the subject.



We are talking about the national fiscal debt, not saving the environment. We are discussing the obscene amount of money we are receiving in loans from China and some other nations to fund the wars.

[cat hallucination]

[quote name="Chaohinon"]those are different, as one's involvement is clear.



but show me what fucking contract I signed that had anything to do with the national debt. why can't I buy a couch and send you the invoice?[/quote]



its a choice you have to make. the u.s. and world economy is what you thrive on, whether you chose to or not. so you can remain apathetic and chose to not be responsible, or you be pro-active.



[quote name="abzu"]You just changed the subject.



We are talking about the national fiscal debt, not saving the environment. We are discussing the obscene amount of money we are receiving in loans from China and some other nations to fund the wars.[/quote]



i was incorporating environmentalism into the u.s. citizen's overall responsibility. as enviromentaly and economically efficient as you can be is the best overall for economy so we can work on paying back our debt and also being more respectful beings of our planet.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Chaohinon"]those are different, as one's involvement is clear.



but show me what fucking contract I signed that had anything to do with the national debt. why can't I buy a couch and send you the invoice?[/quote]

You were, presumably, born into a democratic republic. If you no longer wish to live in one, move to a more desirable locale. If you want to live in one but want it to be different, find those like-minded and peacefully assemble to spread the word. You may also vote.



I'm not saying those are effective means, really. However, this is where you are. If you do not want to be here, do not be here.

[Redd]

I really don't like that attitude of "if you don't like it, move." What if he can't afford it? What if everywhere else is just as shitty? Moving away won't bring any change either.

[cat hallucination]

yah its an immature notion. whatever i guess. if they can make something out of it and boost their beliefs, go for it.

[Abzu]

I like a democratic republic. I don't always agree with the results, but I like that part of the system. So did the founding fathers and the larger bulk of people thereafter. It is this way.



When people from fucking NJ come to Vermont and try to make it like Jersey, they can f.uck off and go back to Jersey. This isn't NJ, this is VT. Of course, being born here versus emigrating makes that a bad analogy, but the point is clear.

[Abzu]

How, exactly, is the notion immature? Illustrate the connection.

[Redd]

I don't believe in preserving a paralyzing social/governmental structure just because "it's tradition."

[Abzu]

It's not a matter of tradition. It's the majority rule of the land by the nation that conquered said land.

[Abzu]

Also, the system is set up (or was, theoretically) that the specifics can be altered by the majority will of the inhabitants through various means.

[cat hallucination]

it was a generalization, but i've heard it from people before. like, "if bush is president again, i'm leaving the country." i'm like, "you go for it buddy."

[Redd]

Control all the major media outlets, and you can control the majority will.



Thomas Jefferson said that there should be a revolution every twenty years. Why? He knew that each generation was different from the last, and revolution would keep us all on top of our political leaders. The politicians would be afraid of the people instead of the other way around.

[Noyka]

Thomas Jefferson was ahead of his time, he was flawed but he along with the other founders knew what he was talking about.

[Abzu]

[quote name="cat hallucination"]it was a generalization, but i've heard it from people before. like, "if bush is president again, i'm leaving the country." i'm like, "you go for it buddy."[/quote]

That is an extreme reaction I agree.



Only one known person who said that followed through.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Redd"]Control all the major media outlets, and you can control the majority will.



Thomas Jefferson said that there should be a revolution every twenty years. Why? He knew that each generation was different from the last, and revolution would keep us all on top of our political leaders. The politicians would be afraid of the people instead of the other way around.[/quote]

There used to be cultural revolutions at about that interval.

[Redd]

You think cultural revolutions are going to change excessive spending? Do you think cultural revolutions will stop politicians from taking bribes? Do you think cultural revolutions will stop big companies from bribing the politicians? Do you think cultural revolutions will end the corrupt practices of the government?

[cat hallucination]

well a cultural revulotion that defeated the said obviously by definition would. but what do you mean by cultural revolution? activists, rebels, political parties that don't get the vote?

[Abzu]

[quote name="Redd"]You think cultural revolutions are going to change excessive spending? Do you think cultural revolutions will stop politicians from taking bribes? Do you think cultural revolutions will stop big companies from bribing the politicians? Do you think cultural revolutions will end the corrupt practices of the government?[/quote]

Did I fucking say they would?

[Redd]

Then I don't understand your point about cultural revolutions.

[captain twat. IV.]

[quote name="abzu"]

or we will take care of it mob style and invade them[/quote]



Haha fuck I hope not.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Redd"]Then I don't understand your point about cultural revolutions.[/quote]

I was noting that they seem to follow the pattern Jefferson laid out.

[Redd]

I'm pretty sure meant a different kind of revolution. You know, the kind with tar and feathers? The one he supported?

[jawn galliano]

[quote name="Redd"]Then I don't understand your point about cultural revolutions.[/quote]



The point isn't to stop those things from happening right now, because pretty much the only way to accomplish that in the short run is through violence. The point of a cultural revolution is to alter the course of governmental behavior over the long run. There's a cultural shift going on with younger (say under-30 folks, for a loose definition of 'younger) people right now, which will eventually have an impact when said generations begin to assume power over the next few decades.



Just kinda like how the cultural shift in the 60's produced a bunch of hyper-individualistic narcissists, who have come into power and sorta got us into the mess we're in right now.



that's my quick (and probably idealistic) take on the point of cultural revolutions, hopefully it makes some sort of sense

[cat hallucination]

[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]
[quote name="Redd"]There's a cultural shift going on with younger (say under-30 folks, for a loose definition of 'younger) people right now, which will eventually have an impact when said generations begin to assume power over the next few decades.

[/quote][/quote]



i totally agree with this. i think its a good thing too. a key change that's happening is that old organized religion is going away.

[Devy]

[quote name="zim"]devy I knew that looked familiar, banjo kazooie![/quote]



God damn right

[Abzu]

[quote name="Redd"]I'm pretty sure meant a different kind of revolution. You know, the kind with tar and feathers? The one he supported?[/quote]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure of that as well.

[Redd]

[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]
[quote name="Redd"]Then I don't understand your point about cultural revolutions.[/quote]



The point isn't to stop those things from happening right now, because pretty much the only way to accomplish that in the short run is through violence. The point of a cultural revolution is to alter the course of governmental behavior over the long run. There's a cultural shift going on with younger (say under-30 folks, for a loose definition of 'younger) people right now, which will eventually have an impact when said generations begin to assume power over the next few decades.



Just kinda like how the cultural shift in the 60's produced a bunch of hyper-individualistic narcissists, who have come into power and sorta got us into the mess we're in right now.



that's my quick (and probably idealistic) take on the point of cultural revolutions, hopefully it makes some sort of sense[/quote]



It makes sense and I definitely see your point, but I still don't believe cultural revolutions will change the way the government acts. Sure, cultural revolutions might give certain groups more freedom, but it still doesn't change overall government behavior. I'd say ever since after Civil War ended (and hell, even during it), politicians stopped caring about the people and more about their own selfish interests.

[cat hallucination]

[quote name="Redd"] but it still doesn't change overall government behavior.[/quote]



i disagree. i think activism has a great influence, also low presidential approval ratings do the same. i'm sure they caused bush to back down on the war in iraq.

[Abzu]

From a national perspective, Redd, there are two ways to view the Civil War. (race issues aside)



A. The federal government decided to rule over the states, shifting that balance that still struggles to this day.

B. A collection of states became a single nation.



Both are equally correct.

[Abzu]

:drpage3:

[Redd]

@ Cat Hallucination:

Last time I checked, we were still in Iraq.



@ Abzu:

And why would those particular states want to become a single nation? Because the federal government wanted almost complete control over the states.



Edit:

Fuck, I'd say the gov't stopped caring about the people after the War of 1812. "American System" my ass.

[cat hallucination]

[quote name="Redd"]@ dog Hallucination:

Last time I checked, we were still in Iraq.

[/quote]



i know, but it could be worse, and from what i've observed of bush's reflection on his term, he's tentative about what happened. i mean seriously, a journalist threw a shew at him on his going away party. i'm sure these things affect him. courageous man though ....any man or woman who assumes that kind of responsibility has nuts beyond what most of us know.

[Abzu]

Really? Shew? Come on.

[cat hallucination]

shoe



fuck i was hoping it was a chili cheese fries.

[Abzu]

I'll forgive you this one time.

[cat hallucination]

thanks...i do know how to spell shoe though...right?

[Abzu]

You do now, at least.