The Israeli-Palenstinian Thread

[Abzu]

Posts of specific aspects (like the human shield thread) always tend to go into the larger picture of the conflict. So let's discuss the larger picture of the conflict.

[ANGEL OF DESEASE]

I'm tired of Muslims fanatics in general, they must all die.

[Abzu]

[quote name="ANGEL OF DESEASE"]I'm tired of Muslims fanatics in general, they must all die.[/quote]

I think all religious extremists/fanatics should be exiled to one island wherein they may do each other in whilst leaving the rest of us the fuck alone.

[ANGEL OF DESEASE]

ah yeah, every kind of religious fanatism is a shit, but Muslims fanatics most of all for their idiot mentality of heaven = Killing myself and other lot of people cause I will be in heaven with 300 virgins chicks. They are just idiots,ridicolous and dangerous than any other kind of religion.

A christian fanatic is not dangerous, he just spend his life in chaste and praise, without enjoying the world and life pleasures. A muslim fanatic has the aim to KILL other people. So they are the most slimy bastards useless worms that walk this earth.

[FUKKET]

i hate all religions.



(we're just monkeys that have been buttfucked by a fish) :sp-mega-win:

[zim]

[quote name="FUKKET"]i hate all religions.



(we're just monkeys that have been buttfucked but a fish) :sp-mega-win: [/quote]

[FUKKET]

pre-cawfee-morning-typo

fixed

[Uros]

I am just gonna say that there is a lot more to it than plain old "suicide bombers reaching for heaven" thing. If you look at it, before this Afghanistan and then Iraq shit, there was not so many talking about that. But it broke out only after it, and large part of it is reactionary (concrete: "get the fuck out of my country" attitude).



To make it clear, I detest all religions (although I consider myself as spiritual) because they are systems with clear agenda, but if you look at those "terrorists" as AoD say he does, you might as well go listen to last 2 Kreator records (the "suicide terrorists" song - hilarious ) and consider yourself as a rebel, or true metal warrior :arrgh:



Some part about those stereotypes is true, but only some part.



Btw, as far as the thread title goes, I've posted something about this in the Imran thread. It's literally "the larger picture"

[Abzu]

AOD:

Christian Terrorists: Teutonic Knights, Inquisition, The Crusades...

[Lavabug]

[quote name="Uros"]I am just gonna say that there is a lot more to it than plain old "suicide bombers reaching for heaven" thing. If you look at it, before this Afghanistan and then Iraq shit, there was not so many talking about that. But it broke out only after it, and large part of it is reactionary (concrete: "get the fuck out of my country" attitude).



To make it clear, I detest all religions (although I consider myself as spiritual) because they are systems with clear agenda, but if you look at those "terrorists" as AoD say he does, you might as well go listen to last 2 Kreator records (the "suicide terrorists" song - hilarious ) and consider yourself as a rebel, or true metal warrior :arrgh:



Some part about those stereotypes is true, but only some part.



Btw, as far as the thread title goes, I've posted something about this in the Imran thread. It's literally "the larger picture" [/quote]

... please don't draw a comparison between genuine freedom fighters and the Taliban/Iraqi insurgency. The taliban are fascist theocrats that want nothing else than to impose their authority on everyone else, Al Qaeda is the "export product" from the radical Islamic world, and the Iraqi insurgency ≠ innocent downtrodden brownies that are fighting for sovereignty, they are former members of the Baath party, from Saddam's death squads that want nothing but to regain power and reinstall a dictatorship, with a few young brainwashed recruits and help from Al Qaeda as well. Most of the innocent victims in Iraq are killed by their own insurgents, people like up and coming politicians and the voting population are a favorite target in an effort to discourage people from going out and having a normal democracy. Not to mention constant suicide bombings in markets and public places to keep people at home living in fear.

[ANGEL OF DESEASE]

[quote name="abzu"]AOD:

Christian Terrorists: Teutonic Knights, Inquisition, The Crusades...[/quote]





yeah man of course...but fuck, many centuries are passed.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Lavabug"]... please don't draw a comparison between genuine freedom fighters and the Taliban/Iraqi insurgency. The taliban are fascist theocrats that want nothing else than to impose their authority on everyone else, Al Qaeda is the "export product" from the radical Islamic world, and the Iraqi insurgency ≠ innocent downtrodden brownies that are fighting for sovereignty, they are former members of the Baath party, from Saddam's death squads that want nothing but to regain power and reinstall a dictatorship, with a few young brainwashed recruits and help from Al Qaeda as well. Most of the innocent victims in Iraq are killed by their own insurgents, people like up and coming politicians and the voting population are a favorite target in an effort to discourage people from going out and having a normal democracy. Not to mention constant suicide bombings in markets and public places to keep people at home living in fear.[/quote]



This.

[Haunty]

[quote name="abzu"]AOD:

Christian Terrorists: Teutonic Knights, Inquisition, The Crusades...[/quote]



Every culture has had elements of terrorism at some point. Until the 20th century, that's just how things were done.

[Uros]

[quote name="Lavabug"]
[quote name="Uros"]I am just gonna say that there is a lot more to it than plain old "suicide bombers reaching for heaven" thing. If you look at it, before this Afghanistan and then Iraq shit, there was not so many talking about that. But it broke out only after it, and large part of it is reactionary (concrete: "get the fuck out of my country" attitude).



To make it clear, I detest all religions (although I consider myself as spiritual) because they are systems with clear agenda, but if you look at those "terrorists" as AoD say he does, you might as well go listen to last 2 Kreator records (the "suicide terrorists" song - hilarious ) and consider yourself as a rebel, or true metal warrior :arrgh:



Some part about those stereotypes is true, but only some part.



Btw, as far as the thread title goes, I've posted something about this in the Imran thread. It's literally "the larger picture" [/quote]

... please don't draw a comparison between genuine freedom fighters and the Taliban/Iraqi insurgency. The taliban are fascist theocrats that want nothing else than to impose their authority on everyone else, Al Qaeda is the "export product" from the radical Islamic world, and the Iraqi insurgency ≠ innocent downtrodden brownies that are fighting for sovereignty, they are former members of the Baath party, from Saddam's death squads that want nothing but to regain power and reinstall a dictatorship, with a few young brainwashed recruits and help from Al Qaeda as well. Most of the innocent victims in Iraq are killed by their own insurgents, people like up and coming politicians and the voting population are a favorite target in an effort to discourage people from going out and having a normal democracy. Not to mention constant suicide bombings in markets and public places to keep people at home living in fear.[/quote]

That was not my point. I meant on this narrow minded opinions about "suicide terrorists". It all exploded only after USA had waged "the war against terrorism".



Now when you mention it, I'd like to say that it's better to have all those dictatorships comparing to America and the likes playing a world cap role (and doing it baadly - only for their own interest). Let them (the people) do it themselves, even if it means decades of terror, because it's their own thing. Same thing is with me. I didn't like Milosevic, but I hate when other nations stick their noses in everything. And especially when they are doing it under the name "we bring bring you freedom" etc. (you know what I am saying).

[Lavabug]

[quote name="Uros"]

Now when you mention it, I'd like to say that it's better to have all those dictatorships comparing to America and the likes playing a world cap role (and doing it baadly - only for their own interest). Let them (the people) do it themselves, even if it means decades of terror, because it's their own thing. Same thing is with me. I didn't like Milosevic, but I hate when other nations stick their noses in everything. And especially when they are doing it under the name "we bring bring you freedom" etc. (you know what I am saying).[/quote]

No, just, no. I really didn't think I'd ever hear it from someone that Iraq would be "better off" if Saddam was still in power. Saddam and the Taliban only managed to install their dictatorships thanks to the aid they received from America(as well as many European nations). The people -who didn't elect these masturbated crackers- are powerless against a dictatorship with first class(for their standards) weaponry and training, with absolutely no qualms about using extreme violence against any dissenters and their families, even peaceful protesters. The LEAST they could do is try and fix things instead of turning their back for 12 years leaving a mass murderer in power(Rwanda-France/Belgium anyone?).



Nobody wants to face this fact of history. It's all too easy to just blame it on America like always(I understand past interventions in South American countries, Vietnam and East Timor make it more inviting, but the hysteria with Iraq/Afghanistan is just excessive). Iraq could finally have a chance at a genuine democracy, it's a spit in the face of every victim of Saddam's dictatorship -grieving widows and orphans, some still suffering from the use of chemical weapons- to say they'd be better off if Saddam was still around.



It has become evident to me that 95% of the non-American opposition to the Iraq intervention is purely and solely due to prejudice against the United States.

[Uros]

But you said it yourself, Saddam rose to power with help of America and others. That's my point. I don't want to rehabilitate Talibans an the likes in any way, just saying that it's not their call to fix the problems in the world even if they would do it sincerely which they don't do. And this is coming from the hard-on bearer who lives in the country which have experienced "their help" in many, many ways.



Those are not prejudices, it's the real thing. It looks like I hate Americans and all that shit. I really don't, but when you see the same things happen in many different parts of the world, it all look really obvious.

Just like it's obvious with this Israel/Palestine thing.

[Lavabug]

[quote name="Uros"]But you said it yourself, Saddam rose to power with help of America and others. That's my point. I don't want to rehabilitate Talibans an the likes in any way, just saying that it's not their call to fix the problems in the world even if they would do it sincerely which they don't do. And this is coming from the hard-on bearer who lives in the country which have experienced "their help" in many, many ways.



Those are not prejudices, it's the real thing. It looks like I hate Americans and all that shit. I really don't, but when you see the same things happen in many different parts of the world, it all look really obvious.

Just like it's obvious with this Israel/Palestine thing.[/quote]

Sorry but I think it is their responsibility to fix it(as well as many other countries like France and Belgium, who sold arms to Saddam), they've left the entire civilian population of these countries powerless and gave all authority and a slew of weapons to tyrannical fanatics. They'll never EVER be able to overthrow their genocidal governments on their own. I didn't imply you had anything against Americans, just that you share the typical prejudice that if America is involved, they must be doing something wrong. I've grown tired of this lazy mentality. My stance is not hard to get to if you are willing to concede that not every single involvement of America/any 1st world nation is automatically wrong and evil. You know what I think of Israel and American involvements in other parts of the world. Iraq shares nothing in common with those other incidents, which is why I can't bring myself to say that it's "America meddling with other countries for their own benefit" or "they'd have been better off with their previous government"(Chile is an example that WOULD be better off if Pinochet had never been helped to succeed).



The gulf war ended too soon. It was a disgrace that Saddam was still left in power(protected by the CIA), but as they say: better late than never.



How Afghanistan is being handled is horrible though. Iraq in a few years will be doing really well, Afghanistan however will probably be remembered as a total failure.

[Grudge]

I agree with Lavabug on the Taliban but I disagree vehemently with his viewpoint on Iraq.



I'll answer properly later when I'm at home.

[beandorkio]

[quote name="Lavabug"]I understand past interventions in South American countries, Vietnam and East Timor make it more inviting[/quote]



The US has not intervened in East Timor. You need to front some evidence for this if you keep saying it.



If there was such a thing as a 'proxy war' then you might as well point the finger at Australia. We were, after all, the ones complicit in the original Indonesian invasion, and the country who sent their troops in when Indonesian-backed militias went buckwild there during elections. We very conspicuously remember the US saying they weren't getting involved.

[Lavabug]

[quote name="beandorkio"]
[quote name="Lavabug"]I understand past interventions in South American countries, Vietnam and East Timor make it more inviting[/quote]



The US has not intervened in East Timor. You need to front some evidence for this if you keep saying it..[/quote]

My bad, I didn't imply physical intervention in that case, rather "meddling"(supporting and arming Indonesia with full knowledge of what they were about to inflict on E. Timor). This is pretty well documented:

<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian ... East_Timor<!-- m -->



[quote name="beandorkio"]

If there was such a thing as a 'proxy war' then you might as well point the finger at Australia. We were, after all, the ones complicit in the original Indonesian invasion, and the country who sent their troops in when Indonesian-backed militias went buckwild there during elections. We very conspicuously remember the US saying they weren't getting involved.[/quote]

I've heard of this before but I've got the details mixed up, is this why Australia has made it on Al Qaeda's hitlist? Because I've also read that Australia supported Indonesia's invasion of E. Timor, that doesn't make much sense.

[beandorkio]

I won't go on for too long about this seeing as though it's the Israeli-Palestinian thread, but this'll be a chance for me to put my BA on southeast asian politics into action...my graduate paper was on recent Indonesian history.



East Timor was a former Portugese colony. It's just off the north coast of Australia, between us and Indonesia. When the Portugese left, the Indonesians decided to grab the territory for themselves (this is around 1975). The US got wind of it, and said "you're invading who?". Indonesians lied and said "a bunch of communists, we're just reclaiming our territory anyways". The domino theory was in vogue at the time (the theory being that communism would work its way down from China through Southeast Asia to Australia), so painting East Timor as communist ensured the US wouldn't interfere with its expansion or cause a fuss at the UN.



Additionally, Indonesia has one of the largest militaries in the world and seeing as though the US is one of the top arms manufacturers and supplied just about EVERYONE at the time, they wanted to ensure that they would be able to supply the Indonesians once their invasion was complete. They also needed to ensure that Indonesia would allow them to have naval access through their new territories.



IF the US at the point decided that they wouldn't support Indonesia's invasion, then the Indonesian army would have gone ahead anyway and the US couldn't and wouldn't have have done much about it. They were already stretched after their various Indochina failures. Additionally they would have lost naval accesses and Indonesia would have painted them complicit in front of the UN anyway. Indonesia is neither poor, nor 3rd world - their army is large and very capable, and the country has no problems funding them or the East Timorese militia.



That's why I wince when I hear the East Timor invasion being pinned on the US. The fabled 'green light' is a very, very long way from causing or fighting a 'proxy war'. Indonesia is very much its own country and takes orders from no-one. Any Australian will tell you, or biggest threat isn't the US, the Chinese, the Croatians, or Al Qaeda - it's Indonesia deciding its had enough of our shit and that it'd like our territory for itself. There's nothing us, or anyone else, could really do in such an instance. Indonesia had made its decision and was just making things as easy for itself as possible by letting the US know.



Anyways, back to the middle east.