Report claims Israelis used Palestinians as human shields

Grudge · Post by **Grudge** » 16 Jul 2009, 11:23

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A report from an Israeli advocacy group based on what it says is the testimony of several unnamed Israeli soldiers accuses the Israeli military of intentionally putting Palestinian civilians at risk during its recent operation in Gaza.

The report, released Wednesday from a group called "Breaking the Silence" -- which includes former Israeli soldiers -- has been dismissed by the Israeli military as slanderous.

In the 110-page report, the group said some of the 26 soldiers interviewed said they used Palestinians as human shields during the military's more than two-week long ground operation in Gaza earlier this year.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast ... index.html

----------------------------

And ofcourse, there was the humane and civilized use of phosphorous shells that were fired indiscriminately at civilians and aid workers alike by the protagonist Israel against the aggressor Gaza.

Haunty · Post by **Haunty** » 16 Jul 2009, 11:54

Doesn't surprise me that the Israelis got the idea. The Palestinians have been using each other as human shields for ages. After a while, it's easy to assume that's what they're for.

Grudge · Post by **Grudge** » 16 Jul 2009, 12:06

your idiotic jokes aside, this report rubbishes the moral highground of the Israeli army. I am interested in what the pro-colony posters on this board, namely Ninny and Beandork have to say about this atrocity.

Lavabug · Post by **Lavabug** » 16 Jul 2009, 12:47

I was actually going to post this yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8149464.stm

A group of soldiers who took part in Israel's assault in Gaza say widespread abuses were committed against civilians under "permissive" rules of engagement.

Haunty · Post by **Haunty** » 16 Jul 2009, 13:04

[quote name="ManOfSteel"]your idiotic jokes aside, this report rubbishes the moral highground of the Israeli army. I am interested in what the pro-colony posters on this board, namely Ninny and Beandork have to say about this atrocity.[/quote]

This atrocity? I hardly see how using someone as a human shield is an atrocity. You don't get shot. They don't get shot. Besides, I think both sides gave up the right to bitch and moan about foul play ages and ages ago. One obvious point, as far as I'm concerned, is that shooting rockets off of rooftops is a strategy that essentially uses an entire civilian population as a human shield. "I'm shooting from a protected area, killing your people, and you can't come bomb me, because other people are around."

If the Palestinians want to bitch about this in particular, they should go out into a desert to fire off their rockets, and then wait there until the Israelis counterstrike.

And that's really just one side of the coin. Israel has a stupid bug up its ass about ethnic exclusionism, and they've gone way, way out of their way to throw some underhanded shit in the Palestinians' faces. Of course, that's also not to mention that if the sides switched places, they would do it any differently.

You, in particular, Imran, seem wildly excited any time you get to point a finger in a westerly direction. You're either going to be arguing with people who are too dumb to understand that there are two sides in a war, or you're going to be arguing with people who do get that fact. Neither is worth your time.

baron von blondle · Post by **baron von blondle** » 16 Jul 2009, 17:29

WOW¬ i never heard of unspeakable things happening on a battlefield! this must be because of rampant capitalism and the U.S!!!

beandorkio · Post by **beandorkio** » 16 Jul 2009, 19:30

[quote name="ManOfSteel"] I am interested in what the pro-colony posters on this board, namely Ninny and Beandork have to say about this atrocity.[/quote]

I believe HbW has said it all for me.

Sarcofago · Post by **Sarcofago** » 16 Jul 2009, 22:16

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 17 Jul 2009, 09:31

Before the middle eastern nations kill each other off completely, can I please get me some Israeli Defense Force lady vagina on my wangux? I want to fuck many of those girls.

jawn galliano · Post by **jawn galliano** » 17 Jul 2009, 13:50

#4 is a terrible, terrible example

i think i prefer the nonexistent #2 to that one :(

TamPron · Post by **TamPron** » 17 Jul 2009, 15:03

They are are all purdy ladies, sir

jawn galliano · Post by **jawn galliano** » 17 Jul 2009, 16:27

the first and third are passable in the looks department and i would not throw them out of bed if it came down to it. the last one is a pudgy broad and has a wicked and most hateful look in her eyes. she is evil personified, and should be locked in a maximally terrifying dungeon for all eternity.

baron von blondle · Post by **baron von blondle** » 17 Jul 2009, 17:21

now this thread is sensible!

all of them combatbabes!

jawn galliano · Post by **jawn galliano** » 17 Jul 2009, 17:29

JUDEN TOTEN

I FAILED GERMAN TEN YEARS AGO

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

D:

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:16

#2 fixed ftw

baron von blondle · Post by **baron von blondle** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:21

where the fuck are you getting these spanktastic pictures from?!

**edit**

i think this is definately real..looks like special forces to me

Ninny · Post by **Ninny** » 17 Jul 2009, 23:58

Must be hard for the terrorists getting wango3d by jew girls

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 18 Jul 2009, 00:53

search "girls of idf"

There are a few galleries out there.

I want to jam hot military women.

Sarcofago · Post by **Sarcofago** » 18 Jul 2009, 01:33

Chicks with guns makes me

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 18 Jul 2009, 02:51

[quote name="Sarcofago"]

Chicks with guns makes me

[/quote]

I second that.

Grudge · Post by **Grudge** » 19 Jul 2009, 13:39

[quote name="beandorkio"]I believe HbW has said it all for me.[/quote]

[quote name="baron von blondle"]WOW¬ i never heard of unspeakable things happening on a battlefield! this must be because of rampant capitalism and the U.S!!![/quote]

Unspeakable things do happen on the battlefield. But in order to understand what this 'revelation' means, it's important to know a bit about the reasoning Beandorkio and Ninny were using to paint the Israeli army in more favorable colors compared to the Palestinian guerrillas during the recent war. They explicitly referred to the Palestinian guerrillas as cowards who used human shields, in contrast to the Israeli army's more moral methods (of slaughter).

This is the point that has just been utterly rubbished by the report I've posted about. This is the very point that Beandorkio has dodged. Instead, a new angle has been presented: "but, but, but there are always two sides to the coin!" - by Beandorkio's newly appointed yardman and savior HBW.

Yes HBW there are always two perspectives to any conflict. If the conflict involves more than two, then you have more perspectives.

The slave has his perspective. The slave holder has his perspective. What's your fucking point, you psychology studying doofus? That the slave holder is justified because he has a perspective... that it must be respected? Crass fence-sitting that truly lacks a moral compass.

Interestingly enough though, HBW has pushed himself over the fence by an honest appraisal of the situation, but he has landed on mud instead of greener pastures. He acknowledges that Israel is a racist state that oppresses the Palestinians. Yet he can't draw the connection as to why the Palestinians, who were thrown out of their homes to make way for Jewish settlements, who are still being terrorized by settlers... who are surrounded by barbed wire- packed into a dense area like herded animals with no possibility of aid, trade or commerce unless allowed by Israel... who are shot, maimed, bombed and 'tested upon' by flesh burning white phosphorus shells... he can't draw the connection as to why then each Palestinian man, woman and child swears death upon the murdering hordes of Israel, upon the racist state of Israel.

[quote name="HbW"]One obvious point, as far as I'm concerned, is that shooting rockets off of rooftops is a strategy that essentially uses an entire civilian population as a human shield. "I'm shooting from a protected area, killing your people, and you can't come bomb me, because other people are around."[/quote]

By that rationale, when Britain was bombed during the air raids in WW2, was Britain holding its own populace as human shields? If your country is invaded by an aggressor, are you holding your own populace as a human shield?

There is no other battlefield to fight on, except Gaza, you fool. Where would you have the Palestinian fighters go to? They are under siege by Israel, surrounded by hostile forces. What non-existent battlefield are you referring to that the Palestinians can go to in order to avoid having bombs raining down on their own people?

What kind of twisted logic is this: "Oh those devious guerillas, using their own people as shields... look at the thousands they made us kill through our bombing campaigns. Look at how evil they are, they made us bomb their population using the most destructive technology available."

beandorkio · Post by **beandorkio** » 19 Jul 2009, 16:06

Sorry dude, I know you want a debate here but that's not happening.

I'd try if there was any remote possibility that a few facts and reason might get through to you, but I lost all hope of that when you came out swinging for Mugabe and Kim Jong Il.

You are either truly, irretrievably warped now against all things western, or this is a classic long-running Imran wango3 to wind as many people up.

Either way I don't care what your opinions are, and I ain't playing...

Until you come out all rummy for Hitler that is, I'm still waiting for that one.

Ninny · Post by **Ninny** » 19 Jul 2009, 16:48

[quote name="CNN"]The Israeli military has rejected the report, saying the anonymous nature of the testimonies means they lack credibility.[/quote]

[quote name="Imran"]What non-existent battlefield are you referring to that the Palestinians can go to in order to avoid having bombs raining down on their own people? There is no other battlefield to fight on, except Gaza, you fool. Where would you have the Palestinian fighters go to? They are under siege by Israel, surrounded by hostile forces.

[/quote]

Hamas attacked Israel. If they had created an army and invaded Israel, then there would have been a battlefield. But they chose to send their rockets and then cowardly hide among civilians.

Also why wasn't Hamas wearing uniform?

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 19 Jul 2009, 21:45

Ninny, are you fucking dumb, or you're just doing some kind of trolling? Palestinians are under occupation for a long time now. Hamas, while it's clearly that they are not wine and roses either, are reactionary movement. Their goal is not to conquer Israel.

So I guess if someone invade your country you're not going to fight them until you set up some battlefield where your fellow countrymen don't live

Lavabug · Post by **Lavabug** » 20 Jul 2009, 01:38

[quote name="Ninny"]
[quote name="CNN"]The Israeli military has rejected the report, saying the anonymous nature of the testimonies means they lack credibility.[/quote]

[/quote]

Unless you've already made up your mind that the Israeli government is infallible, why would you trust their word on this subject, especially when they've already gotten a few hundred sanctions for violating international law?

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 20 Jul 2009, 02:11

Uros, go hang around anywhere within 500 miles of the Israeli-Palestinian border on the Israel side. Sit in some school houses or spend some time out on the street. Hang out with the children.

In this current phase of this never-ending conflict, Hamas attacked first by launching rockets over the border (because Israel did some meanie things to Palestinians digging tunnels into Israel below the border, if memory serves). Were they targeting military bases? Were they targeting key strategic points? Were they targeting? They were not. Those rockets were launched blindly over the border to hit whatever they may hit. They hit homes. They hit schoolhouses. They hit random points and they were many. So, Israel broke "peace" (quotations because I do not support Israel's continued settlements and oppressive so-called siege [Gaza does have a coast]) and began bombing the cock out of Gaza. Yes, what the Israeli government does to the Palestinian people is wrong. The siege is not a good situation. Israel should give the Palestinians a set space then not expand into said space. But honestly, what did Hamas expect to garner as a response from Israel by lobbing those rockets over the border like that?

Go sit there in that zone with Hamas rockets coming down who-knows-where and then call Ninny stupid. Opinions on the conflict as a whole aside, the fact of the matter is that Hamas broke a momentary calm by lobbing rockets blindly into Israeli civilian territories then hid amongst Palestinian civilians. Ninny's statement is true for this event, regardless of whether or not it speaks for the conflict as a whole.

As for the human shield thing, without proof, I, not being there and seeing it for myself, can only speculate its validity. Is it probable? Sure. Is it probable to be untrue? Sure.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 20 Jul 2009, 02:19

[quote name="ManOfSteel"]your idiotic jokes aside, this report rubbishes the moral highground of the Israeli army. I am interested in what the pro-colony posters on this board, namely Ninny and Beandork have to say about this atrocity.[/quote]

I don't think either side has the moral high ground at this point. They're both being cowfuckers.

Get a map, draw a fucking line, and neither cross it (or lob rockets over it), end of story.

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 20 Jul 2009, 06:07

Abzu,

I am not talking about now, I am talking about the whole thing. Probably there are people that make use of war in Hamas, I am not necessarily justifying their rocketing, but you must observe the whole thing. That breaking of "peace" you are speaking of, I ask you - what kind of peace is that? Barbed wire, caged Palestinian children (when you already speak of the children)...so now you blame the Palestinians for complaining, for breaking the "peace" which was enforced upon them?

I don't hate Jews, I am just allergic when it comes to Zionists. If you read just a bit on it, you'll see that their goal is to wipe the fuck out of Arabs and to enlarge their Zionist state...

Just to show, look at these few pics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________________________

Do you now see what I am getting at? Palestine/Israel ratio nowadays is practically "reverse" comparing to pre WWII, even pre 1950.

I think it's clear with Israel and their politics (those settlements are there for a reason, you know). History is a good teacher. This is very graphic, simple, but it's clear and obvious for everyone out there who wants to know even out of curiosity, and not just babble on the internet.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 20 Jul 2009, 08:49

I don't disagree about the whole of the conflict, but lobbing those rockets accomplished nothing but civilian Israeli death and the admittedly excessive wrath of the Israeli army.

Grudge · Post by **Grudge** » 21 Jul 2009, 15:50

[quote name="abzu"]In this current phase of this never-ending conflict, Hamas attacked first by launching rockets over the border [/quote]

Let me quickly correct you here. 1) Hamas did not launch rockets unprovoked. Israel had blockaded Gaza with barbed wire, which ended Gaza's contact with the outside world and starved its citizens. Demands to lift the blockade were not met. Hence the rockets were fired. All the while settlers from Israel were terrorizing the Palestinian population with violence and evictions.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 14981.html

2) Your attempts to take this in an emotional direction by citing civilians killed by Hamas and saying "go sit in those areas where Hamas fires rockets..." doesn't this seem like a really weak call, considering that Hamas rockets were peanuts compared to the overhead bombings in the tightly packed civilian population, the use of flesh burning white phosphorus shells and and a full invasion that killed over 1000 people? All that AFTER a blockade of the region that was starving the region, and constant terrorising by Israeli settlers? I am not in the least roused by emotional calls such as those you're giving.

beandorkio · Post by **beandorkio** » 21 Jul 2009, 16:44

Lets point all this in a far more interesting direction.

Just say you were democratically elected Hamas.

Israel keeps you and your country under blockade under the accusation of constantly smuggling in weapons such as rockets, and your populace digs tunnels to get basic supplies and weapons in. Israel constantly fills those tunnels in and uses their existance to justify continuing the blockade. As a government, you have three big curses - the country blockading you is far superior militarily, your allies provide support mostly in the form of weapons but not citizenships, education, trade, etc, and occasionally a dingbat from your territory will go and fire a rocket at Israel or perform a suicide attack which Israel will then take as an aggression from your nation instead of the work of an individual. Additionally, every previous time your leadership has made war-talk or fired retaliatory rockets into Israel your country gets savaged and many civilians die.

What, as a government, would you do?

My steps would be as follows:

1) Don't fire rockets at Israel. Achieves nothing except lots of dead civilians and wrecked buildings for Palestine. Hasn't worked as a political tool so far.

2) Work on getting some better friends. Egypt, Iran and Syria for example only like Palestine for provoking Israel and for being the poster-child of western oppression, but they're not exactly going to help drag it out of poverty.

3) Once the blockade opens and the border is a bit more relaxed, work on getting education and employment for the populace in the nearby super-rich country....Israel. Apart from the Zionist community Israel is multicultural and has an Arab population. Unemployed, hungry, uneducated, desperate people are the kind who see their only salvation in war and suicide.

I know your first reaction Imran will be to roll your eyes and foam away and tell me how wrong I am. Don't bother, because I don't care.

Instead, tell me what actions you'd take as the Hamas government to bring Palestine to prosperity and stop the aggression from Israel.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 22 Jul 2009, 21:35

[quote name="beandorkio"]Lets point all this in a far more interesting direction.

Just say you were democratically elected Hamas.

Israel keeps you and your country under blockade under the accusation of constantly smuggling in weapons such as rockets, and your populace digs tunnels to get basic supplies and weapons in. Israel constantly fills those tunnels in and uses their existance to justify continuing the blockade. As a government, you have three big curses - the country blockading you is far superior militarily, your allies provide support mostly in the form of weapons but not citizenships, education, trade, etc, and occasionally a dingbat from your territory will go and fire a rocket at Israel or perform a suicide attack which Israel will then take as an aggression from your nation instead of the work of an individual. Additionally, every previous time your leadership has made war-talk or fired retaliatory rockets into Israel your country gets savaged and many civilians die.

What, as a government, would you do?

My steps would be as follows:

1) Don't fire rockets at Israel. Achieves nothing except lots of dead civilians and wrecked buildings for Palestine. Hasn't worked as a political tool so far.

2) Work on getting some better friends. Egypt, Iran and Syria for example only like Palestine for provoking Israel and for being the poster-child of western oppression, but they're not exactly going to help drag it out of poverty.

3) Once the blockade opens and the border is a bit more relaxed, work on getting education and employment for the populace in the nearby super-rich country....Israel. Apart from the Zionist community Israel is multicultural and has an Arab population. Unemployed, hungry, uneducated, desperate people are the kind who see their only salvation in war and suicide.

I know your first reaction Imran will be to roll your eyes and foam away and tell me how wrong I am. Don't bother, because I don't care.

Instead, tell me what actions you'd take as the Hamas government to bring Palestine to prosperity and stop the aggression from Israel.[/quote]

This is a lot of what I was going to say in response to Imran.

My response to Uros calling Ninny dumb was more likely more about me responding to anyone thinking this conflict is one sided. Again, what did Hamas honestly think was going to happen when they blindly launched many hundreds of rockets into Israel between November 2008 and January 2009? Did they not think Israel would retaliate (albeit horribly excessively)?

I'm really beginning to think that this is going to require severe third party intervention. Otherwise, they're going to simply continue provoking and attacking one another until Israel wipes them out of existence.

Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm-Flailing Tube Man · 23 Jul 2009, 02:52

no one who picks up a gun on the whim of another person's orders can claim moral high ground. Israeli and Palestinian demagogues and killers can both go fuck themselves for failing in the relatively simple task of disengaging from being violent animals

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:03

[quote name="Chaohinon"]Israeli and Palestinian demagogues and killers can both go fuck themselves for failing in the relatively simple task of disengaging from being violent animals[/quote]

In the end, when all is taken into consideration and everything is lain out on the table, you take the words from my mouth.

Sarcofago · Post by **Sarcofago** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:17

This reminds me of....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvlEBV2p8H0

Fuck the middle east

There's too many problems

They just get in the way

We sure could live without them

They hijack our planes

They raise our oil prices

We'll kill them all and have a ball

And end their fuckin' crisis

BEIRUT, LEBANON-Won't exist once we're done

LIBYA, IRAN-We'll flush the bastards down the can

SYRIANS and SHIITES-Crush their faces with our might

Then Israel and Egypt can live in peace without these dicks

Ninny · Post by **Ninny** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:21

[quote name="Uros"]Their goal is not to conquer Israel.[/quote]

It is though

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:55

[quote name="Chaohinon"]Israeli and Palestinian demagogues and killers can both go fuck themselves for failing in the relatively simple task of disengaging from being violent animals[/quote]

So you're saying that if, hypothetically, someone occupies your house you can go fuck yourself if you want your house back?

That's similar to this one time when, in some thread concerning Kosovo thing, Vahmpy posted something along the lines of "why can't you give them Kosovo and let all live in peace?"...

Smart.

You people just want no violence. I can see that. I am not for violence. But when someone attack your place to live, violence is the last resort. To me, it looks like that you simply don't know what you are talking about. To you (not just you Chaohinon; I mean generally speaking) these things are just a bunch of headlines, you just want no violence. But they are not fighting over carrots and apples, and for the sake of fighting. There is a lot more at stake.

Just look at the pics I posted, look how much Israel has expanded over the years. Of course, at the expense of Palestine.

[quote name="Ninny"]
[quote name="Uros"]Their goal is not to conquer Israel.[/quote]

It is though[/quote]

Just look at the pics I posted. It's obvious who is the conqueror

beandorkio · Post by **beandorkio** » 23 Jul 2009, 04:57

Which is why my suggestion is they put the rockets away, get buddy-buddy with Israel over the course of the next decade or two, and then migrate the shit out of the place.

The only way their current tactic of rockets/suicide bombings works is if it becomes utterly unappealing for any jew to move to Israel, but the cost to your people for pursuing that course is, it seems, pretty high. They aren't taking Israel territory back militarily, not unless something utterly game-changing appears.

Charles Bronson · Post by **Charles Bronson** » 23 Jul 2009, 06:02

[quote name="baron von blondle"]WOW¬ i never heard of unspeakable things happening on a battlefield! this must be because of rampant capitalism and the U.S!!!

[/quote]Want to be friends?

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 23 Jul 2009, 06:09

Which is why my suggestion is they put the rockets away, get buddy-buddy with Israel over the course of the next decade or two, and then migrate the shit out of the place.

Not a chance. Why do you think Israelis have their settlements "between" Palestinians? Do you really think that Zionists gonna let that happen? They are very smart, have resources, have really good tactics and have a very strong allie.

The only way their current tactic of rockets/suicide bombings works is if it becomes utterly unappealing for any jew to move to Israel, but the cost to your people for pursuing that course is, it seems, pretty high. They aren't taking Israel territory back militarily, not unless something utterly game-changing appears.

My opinion is that there are a certain number of people among Palestinians themselves who profit on war (like in every war), so maybe that's why there is bombing/rocketing, who knows.

Palestinians have no chance, they can't take their territories back militarily. The only way is that Israel give them back by their own will, or that International community make Israel to do it, and that ain't gonna happen, 'cause they "worked" hard to overtake those territories since the WWII.

I definitely have understanding for Palestinians and for most of their actions, but simply put - they have no chance. Most probably, they will die off and disappear as a nation. The process itself is gonna be slowly though.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 23 Jul 2009, 10:23

Uros... seriously...

What exactly did lobbing those hundreds of rockets last winter accomplish? What did it bring to them? It brought more Israeli attacks. It brought more civilian death on both sides. What else could it have done? They are both stupid at this point.

The occupation is wrong. The blockades on anything but Israel's own border are wrong. The multitudes of indignities Israel commits on them are wrong. The violence is wrong. The things Israel has done to the Palestinians are wrong, but launching all of those rockets at Israel was just incredibly, undeniably, immensely fucking stupid.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 23 Jul 2009, 10:24

:pagetwousedpageoneasahumanshield:

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 23 Jul 2009, 18:51

As I said, it could be this

My opinion is that there are a certain number of people among Palestinians themselves who profit on war (like in every war), so maybe that's why there is bombing/rocketing, who knows.

Or, it could be that they want make third party to intervene.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 24 Jul 2009, 08:20

That's pretty damn probable and, I think, where we come into solid agreement.

Grudge · Post by **Grudge** » 25 Jul 2009, 18:54

Friends, I'm sorry but between my long hours at work, and the time I dedicate to political work, I do not have time anymore to get in lengthy debates where point by point answers are required on this forum.

I have made my views clear in the past on this particular topic (Palestine-vs-Israel) as well as on resource grabbing, big company benefiting wars. The Iraq War's primary beneficiaries are big arms companies, construction and oil firms, rather than the tens of thousands slaughtered, maimed and bombed in Iraq for humanitarian concern. My view is entirely contrary to the notion that the war to depose Saddam was an obligation of the United States to clean up it's mess. A mess cannot be cleaned up by replacing the mess with an even bigger mess.

As you can see, my participation on this board in general has reduced to an insignificant level. It will remain like this until something big happens, like the new MA album coming out. Maybe not even then.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 26 Jul 2009, 00:36

[quote name="ManOfSteel"]Friends, I'm sorry but between my long hours at work, and the time I dedicate to political work, I do not have time anymore to get in lengthy debates where point by point answers are required on this forum.

I have made my views clear in the past on this particular topic (Palestine-vs-Israel) as well as on resource grabbing, big company benefiting wars. The Iraq War's primary beneficiaries are big arms companies, construction and oil firms, rather than the tens of thousands slaughtered, maimed and bombed in Iraq for humanitarian concern. My view is entirely contrary to the notion that the war to depose Saddam was an obligation of the United States to clean up it's mess. A mess cannot be cleaned up by replacing the mess with an even bigger mess.

As you can see, my participation on this board in general has reduced to an insignificant level. It will remain like this until something big happens, like the new MA album coming out. Maybe not even then.[/quote]

That's too bad, because even in disagreement, I enjoy these discussions with you.