MABB v6.6.6

and probably it's my own ignorance since i am not as super-up on morbid angel history as i am with certain other bands



but i could have sworn i read / heard / heard people on here & on 1 & 2.0 talking about how one of the big reasons for the trey/vincent split in the wake of the domination tour was trey really didn't like the lyrics david was coming up with, he didn't like the direction they were pointing morbid angel toward, and so they split and trey went off to write formulas all by his lonesome.



is that not correct? or is that correct but only part of it? because watching some of these clips since they reunited, and reading the idi lyrics, ive got to wonder if trey just said "aah fuck it, i dont feel like auditioning another new frontman, ill just get dave back and he can write what he wants."



i am perfectly willing to admit that i'm wrong or don't know the whole story but to me it certainly looks like trey has had to go back on some of his own words with the readmission of evil d into the band

These are my exact thoughts I've had.

You are right. Trey did talk alot about this in the Formulas era. How David spread a false druesome image of the band, and he felt that the lyrics was too mundane and not representing what the band was about. That's one of the many wonders with Illud. If one would ask him about this particular, he would blather on about how everyone changes, and paradigm shifting and all that. "Change is a big part of the band".

[quote name="Trey"]"Change is a big part of the band".[/quote]



which is one of the biggest and lamest cop-outs imaginable in the face of such a one-dimensional record. i couldnt care less about mixing metal with techno, classical, hip hop, fucking country music, whatever. mixing shit together is awesome and when the process is well-intentioned and well-controlled the results can be to blow your mind. illud is really fucking dull. it doesnt sound well-cared for; it sounds like trey had a few songs ready and threw some shit together at the last minute and thor came in with his songs and then they let david gargle donkey semen on top of it and called it a record. this is not an imaginative or inspiring melding of musical genres. nor are these lyrics cool, or extreme, or mind-blowingly deep or clever. the whole album is just...boring



which is why "oh, some people cant handle the change" is an excuse that i find really insulting because its the easiest possible retort. i think most metal fans and certainly most morbid angel fans are more open-minded, musically, than black shirts and long hair might suggest. i find it extraordinarily hard to believe that in this day and age of widespread illegal downloading and filesharing and torrents, when it's possible to get literally thousands and thousands of albums of new music any day you choose to sit down and do so, and when the only limitation on your ability to ingest those albums is the amount of time you have to spend listening to them - when, in other words, anyone with an internet connection has access to more music, for free, than anyone else in the history of time - that all of a sudden a bunch of morbid angel fans are threatened by the "change" that illud "represents."



my dislike of idi, at least, has nothing to do with this "change" bullshit. it's just a fucking boring album

Their having fun "In this game called life" as said in the Heretic booklet. One aspect of that is making a dodgy record and pissing the fans off. Only a band like MA would go to these extremes.

[quote name="david vincent's taint"]
[quote name="Trey"]"Change is a big part of the band".[/quote]



which is one of the biggest and lamest cop-outs imaginable in the face of such a one-dimensional record. i couldnt care less about mixing metal with techno, classical, hip hop, fucking country music, whatever. mixing shit together is awesome and when the process is well-intentioned and well-controlled the results can be to blow your mind. illud is really fucking dull. it doesnt sound well-cared for; it sounds like trey had a few songs ready and threw some shit together at the last minute and thor came in with his songs and then they let david gargle donkey semen on top of it and called it a record. this is not an imaginative or inspiring melding of musical genres. nor are these lyrics cool, or extreme, or mind-blowingly deep or clever. the whole album is just...boring



which is why "oh, some people cant handle the change" is an excuse that i find really insulting because its the easiest possible retort. i think most metal fans and certainly most morbid angel fans are more open-minded, musically, than black shirts and long hair might suggest. i find it extraordinarily hard to believe that in this day and age of widespread illegal downloading and filesharing and torrents, when it's possible to get literally thousands and thousands of albums of new music any day you choose to sit down and do so, and when the only limitation on your ability to ingest those albums is the amount of time you have to spend listening to them - when, in other words, anyone with an internet connection has access to more music, for free, than anyone else in the history of time - that all of a sudden a bunch of morbid angel fans are threatened by the "change" that illud "represents."



my dislike of idi, at least, has nothing to do with this "change" bullshit. it's just a fucking boring album[/quote]



It's an album that I feel is too uninspired to be MA. I expected more, I got less. Basically my reason for disliking it.

[quote name="So Callous"]Their having fun "In this game called life" as said in the Heretic booklet. One aspect of that is making a dodgy record and pissing the fans off. Only a band like MA would go to these extremes.[/quote]



Well, it wouldn't hurt to achieve something good while you're having fun.

[quote name="Spirits of the Deep Waters"]
[quote name="david vincent's taint"]
[quote name="Trey"]"Change is a big part of the band".[/quote]



which is one of the biggest and lamest cop-outs imaginable in the face of such a one-dimensional record. i couldnt care less about mixing metal with techno, classical, hip hop, fucking country music, whatever. mixing shit together is awesome and when the process is well-intentioned and well-controlled the results can be to blow your mind. illud is really fucking dull. it doesnt sound well-cared for; it sounds like trey had a few songs ready and threw some shit together at the last minute and thor came in with his songs and then they let david gargle donkey semen on top of it and called it a record. this is not an imaginative or inspiring melding of musical genres. nor are these lyrics cool, or extreme, or mind-blowingly deep or clever. the whole album is just...boring



which is why "oh, some people cant handle the change" is an excuse that i find really insulting because its the easiest possible retort. i think most metal fans and certainly most morbid angel fans are more open-minded, musically, than black shirts and long hair might suggest. i find it extraordinarily hard to believe that in this day and age of widespread illegal downloading and filesharing and torrents, when it's possible to get literally thousands and thousands of albums of new music any day you choose to sit down and do so, and when the only limitation on your ability to ingest those albums is the amount of time you have to spend listening to them - when, in other words, anyone with an internet connection has access to more music, for free, than anyone else in the history of time - that all of a sudden a bunch of morbid angel fans are threatened by the "change" that illud "represents."



my dislike of idi, at least, has nothing to do with this "change" bullshit. it's just a fucking boring album[/quote]



It's an album that I feel is too uninspired to be MA. I expected more, I got less. Basically my reason for disliking it.[/quote]

[quote name="So Callous"]These are my exact thoughts I've had.[/quote]

I know not the thought processes but it made no sense why David came back. The direction the band took upon his departure was stratospheric and how did Trey respond, wrote Formulas, just as you said.



I don't know why it was that Steve really left. I have read Trey was difficult to work with, yada yada, but after 3 albums. I mean, I will pull the post up but that article I put up a while back from the Terrorizer mag summed up each point you have given. Many interviews I read after that was, if not hostility, just a sense of relief that David was gone and the new direction they were taking.



Not to knock David, but why did he come back? Why did Steve leave? What REALLY happened? Because we can all agree something profound has happened with this band. I enjoy the new album, i hear what they are saying, but at the same time, this seems more of a side project than where they were heading. At least I pray to Lilith this is not the continual direction, not in the least bit.



[edit] Here is the article I was referring too above

[quote name="Conservative_Heretic"]
[quote name="DarkSurgeon"]
[quote name="Conservative_Heretic"]
[quote name="Desoppus"]
[quote name="WhereTheSlimeLives"]

I'm getting that.[/quote]

...and then share the article with us, right?[/quote]



Here ya go

http://www.fileserve.com/file/8Bz9zYS[/quote]

The links not working for me. Its telling me that its not accesible. If someone wouldn't mind uploading it to Mediaifre or something that would be great.[/quote]



Give this a shot

http://www.mediafire.com/?m32aq2cs50ofssf[/quote]

[quote name="Conservative_Heretic"]Why did Steve leave? What REALLY happened?[/quote]



I read an interview where Steve he said he left because he didn't like the musical direction Trey was heading in. He felt that it didn't truly represent MA. Which ironically enough is what Trey said about Dave (with lyrics instead of music)

[quote name="Tea"]
[quote name="Conservative_Heretic"]Why did Steve leave? What REALLY happened?[/quote]



I read an interview where Steve he said he left because he didn't like the musical direction Trey was heading in. He felt that it didn't truly represent MA. Which ironically enough is what Trey said about Dave (with lyrics instead of music)[/quote]

And even more ironically enough, was Trey heading here (IDI), even back then



[edit] Also because now, going by his Facebook posts and such Steve talks about that being one of the greatest times in his life was when he was with MA

I asked about this a lot from Tucker on facebook, he never gave any direct answer. But what I can say through his words is that, F and G are great albums according to him, he enjoyed a lot with this kind of Trey's way of writing music but it seems to change with heretic release. He got disappointed a lot with the change in Trey's music writing, Trey was not anymore serious in music writing(not as before). Trey started writing music more on conceptual level, i mean want to prove his theories through the music forgetting the feelings he had before. So, this is what you can find in Illud, The album is pure win of Trey's concepts, it proves his theories well, but its no where near to the MUSIC he wrote before.

I read a interview with Steve from 2003 before Heretic came out, and he said that he was very excited about Heretic beacuse the "Bass sounds awesome".

They need to remaster Heretic, with more bass.

[quote name="Spirits of the Deep Waters"]I read a interview with Steve from 2003 before Heretic came out, and he said that he was very excited about Heretic beacuse the "Bass sounds awesome". [/quote]

I read a similar article very recently with him, cannot remember what mag it was in or it may have been online, where he said that same thing and then when the album came out he was like "WTF happened to all my bass." That Trey had basically mixed* (am I using that word correctly for when applied to music?) the bass out of the final product without him knowing it happened until he heard it from a fellating lover or some shit. That was the writing on the wall as it was almost like Trey was saying "You will have no sound on this album" which is really crazy.



Personally, and at the crux of the matter it probably is a personal thing so I am merely approaching from the fan angle, I still can not wrap my head around why David came back. It seems they went into the wilderness when that happened. And it almost is like Steve was run off or some shit. I believe he still has much respect for Trey and Morbid Angel as a unit and would not air the dirty details, but there are a lot of unanswered questions, at least from this fan about F-H and then Evil D's return then IDI



As crazy as a thought it is, do you think Trey seeing the poor sales from Heretic, along with the loss of Steve who PROVED he was damn musically talented, commanded a hella stage presence, and generally considered probably the most powerful front-man they have had (IMO) just decided he did not want to pour his soul into MA music anymore?



Plus we know that later this year there is more material coming out based on what Trey said in the recent Decibel article and most likely will further alienate their core base.



* I do not know what the difference between Engineering, Producing, and Mixing is when used with the music business.

Don't mix "bass" with "bass sound" however. When Steve mentions that he liked the bass sound, he's most likely referring to the "wave train" of his instrument in the mix; i.e. overall tone aspect of the bass guitar.

One can make a valid judgment of tone even with the low frequencies more or less shelved or not too prominent. If a person evaluates overall tone character BUT also wants bombastic low end then he would most likely not be pleased with a stripped low end obviously.





Just to address those terms btw:



Producing encompasses guiding the band and harnessing a vision for the overall picture. Back in the day, it also meant the hard-on bearer who got everything together for the band too to make sure they had everything

they needed. These days, the term has been streamlined to denote having a hand in how the different elements of an album is put together.



Engineering is a broad term because tracking/recording, mixing, and even mastering can fall under this category. In common place language it denotes the expert who records the tracks. This person may set up the mic techniques, set levels on pre-amps, mixers, any outboard gear being used, and record through whatever medium at hand raw tones and tracks to be made ready for mixing.



Mixing of course is the hard-on bearer who puts all the recorded material together. Now based on how much input the producer had, there could be some collaboraton with the producer at this stage as well. Perhaps the producer could be suggesting effects and where to use them, help with editing (aesthetic editing), etc.



Mastering entails any final sonic polishing, clean ups, and of course track ordering, code inputting (ISRC's etc) and in general the task of preparing the mixes to their utmost potential for the target medium. Most important thing here is the fresh pair of ears, the different environment made for critical listening, and again CRITICAl listening! Now just about making things louder as our plug and go audio culture has become sadly.

Who cares about the tone when it's more or less complety impossible to hear it on the record? Or do you mean that he didn't know about how it would turn out in the end?

I thought its like first all the members listen to final stuff and than it goes for the release

[quote name="Spirits of the Deep Waters"]Who cares about the tone when it's more or less complety impossible to hear it on the record? Or do you mean that he didn't know about how it would turn out in the end?[/quote]





Yea I can't really know what went down, what he knew before or after and actually not my concern in this case. I'm just laying down the true meanings of these words. It would be intuitive for one to think bass guitar = bass automatically. I understand that, so that's why I wanted to clear up those terms that they are not necessarily hand in hand. As an example, you'd be surprised on certain mixes how much of bass from a bass guitar is stripped away but the entire tone maintained and enhanced (even upper harmonics that support the ear in thinking it's hearing the fundamental still) to create the aural impression of a bass guitar. On certain mixes this is even needed to make it work right. It's imprtant not to confuse these terms.

After releasing Heretic and Steve leaving, having Dave back was probably the only way to keep MA active. Now after all the years of touring, you can´t leave Dave out of recording a new album.

Of course: if Jared and Jesse were still alive; they could've been in MA instead, but satan ordered them back to hell....

Jared, Jesse, Vitek and Chuck. Satan's personal death metal band?

SATAN doesn't NEED a death metal band because he's SATAN.

Thank you Bob for explaining all that to me I have a much better grasp on it now



[quote name="Spirits of the Deep Waters"]Or do you mean that he didn't know about how it would turn out in the end?[/quote]

That is what I was trying to convey. The end result was completely different than what he thought it was going to be or even he had heard. Steve was really really siked about the sound, but what came out was way different than what he had been participating in.



This is one of those instances that I would love for Steve to create a dummy account and post what the hell happened but do it all from the third person perspective.

[quote name="ein dusto"]SATAN doesn't NEED a death metal band because he's SATAN.[/quote]

He needs a glass of water because it's fucking hot down there, but His desires are for His own death metal band thus He summoned them home.

[youtube]GBf5F8mTUxE[/youtube]

@ Conservative_Heretic yep you got it man

[quote name="Anjel"]They need to remaster Heretic, with some bass.[/quote]

Fixed that for you

Hey bob, don't you work with producing and such? You should sample out a song from heretic and add a bunch of bass to it!!!

Haha well as a crude measure to simply hear it with more extended low's, I could do that if you want to hear it. But it is afterall, an already mastered, finalized dithered 16-bit file so other technical caveats

and perils are in play by doing this; buuuut yea I could do it.

Alright well here's a "re-mastered" rendition with more low end. Again i'm not crazy about the idea of processing something that's been processed/limited/dithered/bit-reduced BUT this is just to hear it in a different light. I did some balancing with harmonics and little EQ. "Corrected" upper mid's to let the instruments pop more; it's like more "color" in some strange sonic way. If you can extrapolate the benefits of what was done here and try and ignore or understand the artifacts and side-effects because of the nature of the file then all the better. I could only wish to have Morbid Angel raw mixes or even better raw tracks to re-mix!



<!-- m -->http://www.mediafire.com/?n3z639wkn8aisnw<!-- m -->



Let me say the original master is problematic because of the mix. It could very well be, as you guys were pondering, that Steve, again liked the sound of what they got as for a track or raw tone. But they didn't mix in bass in a balanced way. So obviously with a done mix (and to make matters worse, a done master in this case) it's extremely difficult to try and tweak something specific. The kick drum is very resonant in several octaves, that doesn't help.



I suppose the overall outcome of Heretic can render "a sound". --- I kind of get it, you know? The whole sound and vision I think trey was going for would kind of make you imaginitively depart to another time period in a sense. Really anaylzing Heretic you may realize it has somewhat of a vinyl LP sound. When they cut vinyl back in the day they had to do special filtering so as to keep extended low end to a minimum at risk of letting grooves get too deep. since low frequencies are big and intrusive (that's what she said) they would also need more real estate on the medium. Heretic has this sound: low mid range forward, sort of a covered old school sound. even the guitar distortion is like a ripped speaker: buzzy and extended high's with less biting mid-range. Modern sounds are just the opposite. Anyway, I think it was part of the idea of going back to a time where defiance, especially in the arts, had a place in creating atmosphere and sending a message. People may be appreciated creative things more because 1) they didn't come by them as easy as we have it now and 2) things were not rushed then; they were introverted, more internal less distractions. So what better time to make an impact through music and dark music at that, than to put oneself in that time period where music and the like was not taken for granted. It also meant a dark and brooding style of music (think Black sabbath and their impact at that time!) had THAt much more impact; heretical atmosphere. Anyway, it seems this type of sound is something done with intent rather than relegated in this day and age so yea, that's my explanation for Heretic.

Great job sir, deeper it sounds.

I thought I had read somewhere that David left because he made some Nazi racist remarks and Trey got upset.



Luis

David was spreading false about MA and now MA has fallen into that FALSE.

[quote name="lava Ghoul"]David was spreading false about MA and now MA has fallen into that FALSE.[/quote]

Again falls back to where we are not privy to what is going on behind the scenes but shit ain't passing the smell test.

[quote name="lava Ghoul"]Great job sir, deeper it sounds. [/quote]

and deeper, and deeper . . . . could not resist

[quote name="lava Ghoul"]Great job sir, deeper it sounds. [/quote]



...and deeper

haha thanks man

Deepness is one biggest reason i dont listen to heretic much, the tone sounds baseless. It feels like the lower level of songs are missing, the depths is very less comparing to older MA sound.

You version sounds like it has got some more life.

Cool man, good call about the "depth" issue. In Heretic's case, the low-mid range dominates everything with the obvious low level bass guitar adding to the problem. Heretic's sonics create a psychoacoustic effect

that basically make a sort of boxed, one dimensonal sound. It plays its tricks on you

hey lavagod so what are your thoughts, you were the initiator of this

it definitely has a more "fuller" sound to it and appears to have more mids and creates a little more texture and thus a little more enjoyable to listen too!! great job

<!-- m -->https://www.facebook.com/pages/Morbid-A ... 4655902515<!-- m -->



Steven Tucker Facebook

Death Metal Vocalist. Producer, Recording Engineer. Former Bass & Vocals For Morbid Angel ( 97'-03' R.I.P.)





The RIP says it all..

This is one of those albums I wished they always went back and remixed, etc, etc. Trey has to know it sounds like ass. I remember a musician saying that "Punchy" does a good job of mixing the band in a live setting, but doing it in the studio is a whole different skill set.



Frankly, I would never want to see his name on another MA album ever again. Of course he's on Illud, maybe there's a running theme here ???

Heretic definitely fall into that catagory of a 'for fans only' album. It's not something you'd recommend newcomers to the band with. But It certainly a million miles away from being a bad album. I grew to love this baby

[quote name="KevinP"]This is one of those albums I wished they always went back and remixed, etc, etc. Trey has to know it sounds like ass. I remember a musician saying that "Punchy" does a good job of mixing the band in a live setting, but doing it in the studio is a whole different skill set.



Frankly, I would never want to see his name on another MA album ever again. Of course he's on Illud, maybe there's a running theme here ??? [/quote]

Punchy has been with them forever though Not to be the defender of Illud, the band can do that, but all evidence I have seen (interviews, postings, etc) to me points back to Trey. That the product is what he wanted and sounds how he wanted it to. Just saying.

[quote name="Conservative_Heretic"]
[quote name="KevinP"]This is one of those albums I wished they always went back and remixed, etc, etc. Trey has to know it sounds like ass. I remember a musician saying that "Punchy" does a good job of mixing the band in a live setting, but doing it in the studio is a whole different skill set.



Frankly, I would never want to see his name on another MA album ever again. Of course he's on Illud, maybe there's a running theme here ??? [/quote]

Punchy has been with them forever though Not to be the defender of Illud, the band can do that, but all evidence I have seen (interviews, postings, etc) to me points back to Trey. That the product is what he wanted and sounds how he wanted it to. Just saying.[/quote]

Absolutely Trey's desired sound. Just goes to show you--sometimes it's good to have an outside producer to act as the voice of reason. When your head is that far up your own ass you can onlyhear low-end, you might not notice that your guitar sounds like flies buzzing.

So....



What do you want to know?



I am enjoying all the speculation and comments.



Who wants some real info?



P

[quote name="Punchiest"]So....



What do you want to know?



I am enjoying all the speculation and comments.



Who wants some real info?



P[/quote]

Heretic:

Let's say you were in Morbid Angel. You're in charge of mixing Heretic, and you're given free reign as to how it would sound. Would it have sounded the way it turned out sounding, with those really buzzy, thin guitars? If you're producing vocal sessions, do you ask Tucker to try to sound fuller, more guttural, ballsier, like he did on Gateways? It just sounds to me like there was an overall lack of "balls" in that mix; honestly it sounds like a pre-production demo, especially compared to Gateways, which sounded really "full" (in spite of the electronic drums).



As I said before, I would guess that Heretic came out exactly the way the client (Trey) wanted it to, so mission accomplished.



Illud:

I don't even know where to begin...



I want to know if Evil D just can't do the lows like he did on Covenant, or if he just doesn't want to. He's all midrange now. Although I think I do like his vox on Illud better than the ones on Domination. At least the ones where he's semi-growling.



I'm curious if Trey consciously moved away from soloing a lot. There's like one classic Trey solo on the whole album.



I'm curious to know if Trey tracked rhythm guitar on Thor's songs, because the guitar sounds different to me on those tunes. Not sure if it's just the player, or the actual rig. I'm curious who tracked the guitars on those tunes that Evil D wrote. I'd like to know if Trey soloed on any of the songs he didn't write.



I'm sure there's more, but it's late!

[quote name="slimegod"]
[quote name="Punchiest"]So....



What do you want to know?



I am enjoying all the speculation and comments.



Who wants some real info?



P[/quote][/quote]

Heretic:

Let's say you were in Morbid Angel. You're in charge of mixing Heretic, and you're given free reign as to how it would sound. Would it have sounded the way it turned out sounding, with those really buzzy, thin guitars? If you're producing vocal sessions, do you ask Tucker to try to sound fuller, more guttural, ballsier, like he did on Gateways? It just sounds to me like there was an overall lack of "balls" in that mix; honestly it sounds like a pre-production demo, especially compared to Gateways, which sounded really "full" (in spite of the electronic drums).

As I said before, I would guess that Heretic came out exactly the way the client (Trey) wanted it to, so mission accomplished.









Is there a question in here, or are you just in "COMPLAINT" mode?

I am sure that Trey would think your guitar sound sucks. Pref taste is pref taste...nothing more.

I guarantee that this record came out exactly as TREY, the top dog on the project, wanted it to.













Illud:

I don't even know where to begin...



I want to know if Evil D just can't do the lows like he did on Covenant, or if he just doesn't want to. He's all midrange now. Although I think I do like his vox on Illud better than the ones on Domination. At least the ones where he's semi-growling.









I will let him know you think so.









I'm curious if Trey consciously moved away from soloing a lot. There's like one classic Trey solo on the whole album.







There is so much guitar on Illud is is crazy. On Destructos, TooExtreme, and culpa, there are sections that have as many as 20 tracks of guitar running. There are no keyboards on this record, all texture is guitar. If "solo" is defined as the "diddley-diddley-diddley--boooommmmmmbbb" thing, then yeah....there are not that many solos.









I'm curious to know if Trey tracked rhythm guitar on Thor's songs, because the guitar sounds different to me on those tunes. Not sure if it's just the player, or the actual rig. I'm curious who tracked the guitars on those tunes that Evil D wrote. I'd like to know if Trey soloed on any of the songs he didn't write.







All people are utilized for their strengths on this record.

Everyone played on everyone's stuff.





Hope this helps.

[quote name="KevinP"]This is one of those albums I wished they always went back and remixed, etc, etc. Trey has to know it sounds like ass. I remember a musician saying that "Punchy" does a good job of mixing the band in a live setting, but doing it in the studio is a whole different skill set.



Frankly, I would never want to see his name on another MA album ever again. Of course he's on Illud, maybe there's a running theme here ??? [/quote]









Really?? Please explain.