MABB v6.6.6

Cap and Trade has passed the house and will probably pass the senate too and if Universal Healthcare passes the us's economy will be 46% government.



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So much for transparency

Congress didn't even read the bill Pelosi just rushed it into voting. I really hope she doesn't get re-elected but that's not gonna happen San Francisco is her district.

I'm not against getting onto renewable resources, but in ten years being 20% dependent on them? That's not going to happen. That's going to devastate businesses.

I dont know about the rest of the bills but I do know I would like universal healthcare. Fuck Nixon.

[quote name="Redd"]I'm not against getting onto renewable resources, but in ten years being 20% dependent on them? That's not going to happen. That's going to devastate businesses.[/quote]



Nuclear is the way to go, we should model our energy after France. That's not going to happen though because no money will be made by the green energy guys, they want wind and solar which are not cheap and take more energy to make than the energy they create.







Abzu, are you aware medical decisions will be made based on the policy and not what the doctor thinks is right according to Obama's plan?

wait, we had freedom before this? when?



so long as there is a group out there with a monopoly on the use of force, they can pretty much do what they want at will. this silly game of voting and passing bills and electing people is just smoke and mirrors meant to give a false sense of hope and participation

[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="Redd"]I'm not against getting onto renewable resources, but in ten years being 20% dependent on them? That's not going to happen. That's going to devastate businesses.[/quote]



Nuclear is the way to go, we should model our energy after France. That's not going to happen though because no money will be made by the green energy guys, they want wind and solar which are not cheap and take more energy to make than the energy they create.







Abzu, are you aware medical decisions will be made based on the policy and not what the doctor thinks is right according to Obama's plan?[/quote]



Actually after talking it out, I retract my nuclear statement and think maybe geothermal for the west coast and tidal for the east might be the way to go.

[quote name="Chaohinon"]wait, we had freedom before this? when?



so long as there is a group out there with a monopoly on the use of force, they can pretty much do what they want at will. this silly game of voting and passing bills and electing people is just smoke and mirrors meant to give a false sense of hope and participation [/quote]



Yeah, but at least voting and whatnot gives us a little power to stop the madmen at the top from doing certain shit.

[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="Redd"]I'm not against getting onto renewable resources, but in ten years being 20% dependent on them? That's not going to happen. That's going to devastate businesses.[/quote]



Nuclear is the way to go, we should model our energy after France. That's not going to happen though because no money will be made by the green energy guys, they want wind and solar which are not cheap and take more energy to make than the energy they create.







Abzu, are you aware medical decisions will be made based on the policy and not what the doctor thinks is right according to Obama's plan?[/quote]

Don't bother going any further on that statement without in-context citations from the legislation itself.

[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="Redd"]I'm not against getting onto renewable resources, but in ten years being 20% dependent on them? That's not going to happen. That's going to devastate businesses.[/quote]



Nuclear is the way to go, we should model our energy after France. That's not going to happen though because no money will be made by the green energy guys, they want wind and solar which are not cheap and take more energy to make than the energy they create.







Abzu, are you aware medical decisions will be made based on the policy and not what the doctor thinks is right according to Obama's plan?[/quote]



are you aware medical decisions are already based on all manner of external factors, such as medicare and insurance reimbursement, malpractice liability, etc.



there's a great many reasons to approach a universal plan with skepticism, but the practitioner autonomy ship sailed a looooong time ago

Don't forget big pharma incentives!

[quote name="Skinfection"]legalize marijuana[/quote]

Won't happen. Tobaccos going to be illegal here soon. Clove cigarettes and other cigs (possibly tobacco, legislation is unclear) bans flavors.



Once gun rights are gone, I'll move to another country.



Europe is tired of socialism. Once they reform I'll move somewhere over there.

If they abolish the second amendment, that leaves the first up for grabs..

[quote name="Uber Grim Kvlt"]
[quote name="Skinfection"]legalize marijuana[/quote]

Won't happen. Tobaccos going to be illegal here soon. Clove cigarettes and other cigs (possibly tobacco, legislation is unclear) bans flavors.



Once gun rights are gone, I'll move to another country.



Europe is tired of socialism. Once they reform I'll move somewhere over there.[/quote]

[quote name="Uber Grim Kvlt"]
[quote name="Skinfection"]legalize marijuana[/quote]

Won't happen. Tobaccos going to be illegal here soon. Clove cigarettes and other cigs (possibly tobacco, legislation is unclear) bans flavors.



Once gun rights are gone, I'll move to another country.



Europe is tired of socialism. Once they reform I'll move somewhere over there.[/quote]



tobacco isn't going to be illegal and there is absolutely zero way they'd ever consider making it so. tobacco tax is a huge cash cow for state governments, and there's too much money in the industry for them to allow that. the FDA is getting the power to regulate tobacco and the major companies got to have some of their competition stomped out, that's all.

[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]
[quote name="Uber Grim Kvlt"]
[quote name="Skinfection"]legalize marijuana[/quote]

Won't happen. Tobaccos going to be illegal here soon. Clove cigarettes and other cigs (possibly tobacco, legislation is unclear) bans flavors.



Once gun rights are gone, I'll move to another country.



Europe is tired of socialism. Once they reform I'll move somewhere over there.[/quote]



tobacco isn't going to be illegal and there is absolutely zero way they'd ever consider making it so. tobacco tax is a huge cash cow for state governments, and there's too much money in the industry for them to allow that. the FDA is getting the power to regulate tobacco and the major companies got to have some of their competition stomped out, that's all.[/quote]

Snus is probably going to be banned, shipping companies will no longer ship tobacco, and imported tobacco will be banned soon. That leaves us with RJR and PM cigarettes, and whatever your local cigar shop has.



Bye bye snus :(.

[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]
[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="Redd"]I'm not against getting onto renewable resources, but in ten years being 20% dependent on them? That's not going to happen. That's going to devastate businesses.[/quote]



Nuclear is the way to go, we should model our energy after France. That's not going to happen though because no money will be made by the green energy guys, they want wind and solar which are not cheap and take more energy to make than the energy they create.







Abzu, are you aware medical decisions will be made based on the policy and not what the doctor thinks is right according to Obama's plan?[/quote]



are you aware medical decisions are already based on all manner of external factors, such as medicare and insurance reimbursement, malpractice liability, etc.



there's a great many reasons to approach a universal plan with skepticism, but the practitioner autonomy ship sailed a looooong time ago[/quote]



Are you aware doctors get to decide what medication they perscribe, what precedures can be done, and what not now? Legislation such as Obama's wil ltake all of that freedom away. If you were watching Obama's press confrence or paying any attention to what he's said you'd understand where I'm getting this from.





MEdicare - the reason why universal healthcare needs to be approached with caution. Anyone who is for nation wide universal helathcare needs to look at medicare.

[quote name="Noyka"]Are you aware doctors get to decide what medication they perscribe, what precedures can be done, and what not now? Legislation such as Obama's wil ltake all of that freedom away. If you were watching Obama's press confrence or paying any attention to what he's said you'd understand where I'm getting this from.





MEdicare - the reason why universal healthcare needs to be approached with caution. Anyone who is for nation wide universal helathcare needs to look at medicare.[/quote]



Please elaborate on the first paragraph and then tell what is Medicare and why it is more superior than Universal, FREE, Healthcare?

sure, they can try and write a prescription for any drug they want, doesn't mean the healthcare provider will reimburse for it though. insurance plans use formularies which dictate the medications a doctor can prescribe without having to obtain special authorization, which can be a complicated process and wind up being denied anyway. how often do you think off-formulary prescribing happens?



these same healthcare providers also have just as much say in which procedures can be approved.



if you're advocating for healthcare practitioners to have autonomy, the current system isn't exactly a great example. like i said, that ship has already sailed.

[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]sure, they can try and write a prescription for any drug they want, doesn't mean the healthcare provider will reimburse for it though. insurance plans use formularies which dictate the medications a doctor can prescribe without having to obtain special authorization, which can be a complicated process and wind up being denied anyway. how often do you think off-formulary prescribing happens?



these same healthcare providers also have just as much say in which procedures can be approved.



if you're advocating for healthcare practitioners to have autonomy, the current system isn't exactly a great example. like i said, that ship has already sailed.[/quote]

This. There isn't a lot that would actually change as far as the care we would get; simply that anyone would be able to get it. I've yet to read the proposed actual restrictions on what treatments can or cannot be prescribed under the universal healthcare legislation. Until I see something evident of badness, so to speak, it is just hearsay and rubbish propaganda repeating the same buzzwords and key phrases throughout.

[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]sure, they can try and write a prescription for any drug they want, doesn't mean the healthcare provider will reimburse for it though. insurance plans use formularies which dictate the medications a doctor can prescribe without having to obtain special authorization, which can be a complicated process and wind up being denied anyway. how often do you think off-formulary prescribing happens?



these same healthcare providers also have just as much say in which procedures can be approved.



if you're advocating for healthcare practitioners to have autonomy, the current system isn't exactly a great example. like i said, that ship has already sailed.[/quote]





I just believe in a personal relationship with the doctors you go to. I don't believe a plan should tell us what we can and can't do. With the drugs the doctors perscribe there is almost always a generic and most plans will cover the generic. With the exception of medicare which most doctors don't take because they pay like 1/10 or 1/5 (I cant remember) of the price they should. Congress will bankrupt universal helathcare just like they've done to medicare.

[quote name="abzu"]
[quote name="Famous Mortimer"]sure, they can try and write a prescription for any drug they want, doesn't mean the healthcare provider will reimburse for it though. insurance plans use formularies which dictate the medications a doctor can prescribe without having to obtain special authorization, which can be a complicated process and wind up being denied anyway. how often do you think off-formulary prescribing happens?



these same healthcare providers also have just as much say in which procedures can be approved.



if you're advocating for healthcare practitioners to have autonomy, the current system isn't exactly a great example. like i said, that ship has already sailed.[/quote]

This. There isn't a lot that would actually change as far as the care we would get; simply that anyone would be able to get it. I've yet to read the proposed actual restrictions on what treatments can or cannot be prescribed under the universal healthcare legislation. Until I see something evident of badness, so to speak, it is just hearsay and rubbish propaganda repeating the same buzzwords and key phrases throughout.[/quote]



They'll restrict it on the elderly no longer will desire to live be a factor it'll just be "she's 75 we won't cover a pacemaker for her" and what happens when they run out of money? What happens when there is no money to provide insurance for people? The insurance you get will not be quality look at how the UK is now, that's how our system will turn out. People will be denied the option to have treatments that work the government will bankrupt the private companies that make American Medicine as progressive and advanced as it is today. Depite it's current flaws, you cannot deny how progressive we are as a nation in medical technologies. Both sides use propaganda, I form my opinions on facts and what's going on in other nations.



Also I hope you know if anyone walks into an emergency room they already can and do get help even if they can't pay. So really universal healthcare isn't needed. What is needed is regulation so these screwed up companies don't drop people once they get sick. What's the point of having insurance if as soon as you need it you lose it?



Also Obama wants to pay for all of this with taxes on the "rich" what happens when there are no more "rich" people? He's going to target the middle class and soon we'll all be in trouble.





I'm really more concerned with Cap and Trade which is being voted on July 4th. Congress hasn't even had time to read the bill. The building regulations that are in California (causing this state bankruptcy) will be the nation's standard. If you want to sell your house a federal board is going to have to look at it to make sure it's clean enough and oh yeah every building will have to have a place to plug in your hybrid car. This bill is extremely poor written and due to the limits on nuclear and oil based energy it's putting (like 80% of our energy is supposed to be wind and solar according to this bill) our energy freedoms will be completely wiped out.



Like I said earlier geothermal is way more productive than solar and wind but there 's no money in it. These guys don't care about the planet, CO^2 makes up .03% of our atmosphere for fuck's sake and of that we produce .03% of it (my numbers might be slightly off, if so sorry). They don't care about you, me, or anyone both of these bills are filled with propaganda and ways to control you and me. It's disgusting.

The British system is great, I have grown up with it, my family has benefied from it enormously.



I've been in a US hospital, it wasn't any different, just that you paid $1,000 for seeing someone before you even knew what was wrong.

Noyka you're not entirely incorrect, but you're presupposing that things were ok until now. Fussing about the rise of state violence is like worrying that cancer is becoming deadly.



And I mean, the medical industry of all places

Noyka, show me where it says the negative points.

[quote name="sade"]The British system is great, I have grown up with it, my family has benefied from it enormously.



I've been in a US hospital, it wasn't any different, just that you paid $1,000 for seeing someone before you even knew what was wrong.[/quote]



Also Finnish healhcare system works very well. I can go to any "medical center" here and get treatment from doctor. And I don't need to pay hundreds of euros/dollars for getting treated.

I wish the US had free healthcare, I wouldn't mind having my back and my head checked out again..

[quote name="abzu"]Noyka, show me where it says the negative points.[/quote]



Have you listened to Obama? That's where I'm getting this on healthcare. On cap and trade it parts of the bill that clearly state them.



[quote name="Chaohinon"]Noyka you're not entirely incorrect, but you're presupposing that things were ok until now. Fussing about the rise of state violence is like worrying that cancer is becoming deadly.



And I mean, the medical industry of all places [/quote]





What? I wasn't referring to violence anywhere, I was referring to finances we're going to end up like Russia and that's a fact if these things pass. There will only be extremely poor and the elite, it's not healthy.

[quote name="Pentelesh"]
[quote name="sade"]The British system is great, I have grown up with it, my family has benefied from it enormously.



I've been in a US hospital, it wasn't any different, just that you paid $1,000 for seeing someone before you even knew what was wrong.[/quote]



Also Finnish healhcare system works very well. I can go to any "medical center" here and get treatment from doctor. And I don't need to pay hundreds of euros/dollars for getting treated.[/quote]



Ya'll have fewer options, certain drugs aren't available, certain treatment options god forbid you ever get seriously ill.





Zim you realize it's not free, you pay for it via taxes. The government simply wants to take more control of our lives that's all universal healthcare is about, control.

[quote name="zim"]I wish the US had free healthcare, I wouldn't mind having my back and my head checked out again..[/quote]

You can wait 5-10 years too.

[quote name="Uber Grim Kvlt"]
[quote name="zim"]I wish the US had free healthcare, I wouldn't mind having my back and my head checked out again..[/quote]

You can wait 5-10 years too.[/quote]



By that time I'll be in a wheel-chair and brain dead.

you already are brain dead

[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="Pentelesh"]
[quote name="sade"]The British system is great, I have grown up with it, my family has benefied from it enormously.



I've been in a US hospital, it wasn't any different, just that you paid $1,000 for seeing someone before you even knew what was wrong.[/quote]



Also Finnish healhcare system works very well. I can go to any "medical center" here and get treatment from doctor. And I don't need to pay hundreds of euros/dollars for getting treated.[/quote]



Ya'll have fewer options, certain drugs aren't available, certain treatment options god forbid you ever get seriously ill.





Zim you realize it's not free, you pay for it via taxes. The government simply wants to take more control of our lives that's all universal healthcare is about, control.[/quote]



You really have fallen off the grid this time. Fewer options? Naaah, If I need my head scanned or spine checked it can be done. It just won't be done in day health care center, instead I need to go to a big hospital and not pay 1500 € for it to get it done in private clinic. Which we still have here by the way. And for the drugs, it usually goes like if you need some very heavy deppression pills or something like that for the first time you need to see a qualified and educated doctor for that. With education I now mean a doctor who knows more about deppressions than other "health center" doctors. If your medical file has an note about this medicine (recommended by this person) every doctor can write the pills to you.



I'm sorry but you probably have got your "facts" from bad source. And I will happily pay extra 1-1.5 % more tax for free healthcare because it is definetly worth it.



EDIT: Zim: You said it!

I'm not trying to debate or start further discussion on blah bree blah, I'm just saying if I needed to visit the doctor or had some kind of accident I would be out of luck financial. Of courseI would be able to receive treatment but I wouldn't be able to pay the bills. I'm 19 and unemployed living with my parents, of course I'll be able to pay the outrageous bills. Especially if my injury was debilitating.



And I know free health-care wouldn't be free, but if the tax that was taken from my check didn't have a major impact on my life and I was able to continue living day to day fine (paying bills, food, ect) then it wouldn't be a problem.

Alles ist in die nähe von die kirche. Est ist so. Es gibt hier kein mehr sprechen. Diese klasse ist zu ende.

german translation anyone?

Viele kamen allmählich zu der Überzeugung, einen großen Fehler gemacht zu haben, als sie von den Bäumen heruntergekommen waren. Und einige sagten, schon die Bäume seien ein Holzweg gewesen, die Ozeane hätte man niemals verlassen dürfen.

[quote name="Pentelesh"]
[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="Pentelesh"]
[quote name="sade"]The British system is great, I have grown up with it, my family has benefied from it enormously.



I've been in a US hospital, it wasn't any different, just that you paid $1,000 for seeing someone before you even knew what was wrong.[/quote]



Also Finnish healhcare system works very well. I can go to any "medical center" here and get treatment from doctor. And I don't need to pay hundreds of euros/dollars for getting treated.[/quote]



Ya'll have fewer options, certain drugs aren't available, certain treatment options god forbid you ever get seriously ill.





Zim you realize it's not free, you pay for it via taxes. The government simply wants to take more control of our lives that's all universal healthcare is about, control.[/quote]



You really have fallen off the grid this time. Fewer options? Naaah, If I need my head scanned or spine checked it can be done. It just won't be done in day health care center, instead I need to go to a big hospital and not pay 1500 € for it to get it done in private clinic. Which we still have here by the way. And for the drugs, it usually goes like if you need some very heavy deppression pills or something like that for the first time you need to see a qualified and educated doctor for that. With education I now mean a doctor who knows more about deppressions than other "health center" doctors. If your medical file has an note about this medicine (recommended by this person) every doctor can write the pills to you.



I'm sorry but you probably have got your "facts" from bad source. And I will happily pay extra 1-1.5 % more tax for free healthcare because it is definetly worth it.



EDIT: Zim: You said it![/quote]





I was talking more about UK's than Finland's I don't know about Finnish healthcare and I'll be the first to admit that. However the US tax increase for universal healthcare will be far more than 1-2% considering Obama's plan will cost 2 trillion dollars, current tax revenues are about 1.5 trillion. Also Medicare is government healthcare, lots of doctors don't take it because it is running out of money and doesn't pay for the supplies doctors use to treat patients. Just like social security medicare is going bankrupt and we want to give the bureaucrats in Washington more money and control why? Don't forget the two bailouts and possible cap and trade that might pass.

This is my 'big' experience with the NHS:

My sister was diagnosed with leukemia, that day she was taken to a specialist hospital. From that point on my family recieved support (beyond the completely free treatment) from school tutors, free rides to the hospital (an hour away), vacations for my sister around the country, etc... now that's piece of mind.



For the security something like the NHS provides, I'd take what you're considering less freedom any day.



There are just hundreds of thousands of people just wishing they could go get an injury or illness checked out but they put it off so that they can buy their kids the basics while they suffer.



This isn't about growth, competitiveness or whatever the fuck else, it's about having a system that benefits the whole of your community. No one is born in to wealth so they can afford it, no one is born into good health so they never have to worry, people are just born into a system that is fair.



Also, there is private health care here too.. o.o you could always go for that Noyka, make sure your dr is being competitive!!

How would it be less options for someone like my father, who makes too much to qualify for state insurance but cannot get insurance through work and would not be able to afford medical bills?

[quote name="zim"]
[quote name="Uber Grim Kvlt"]
[quote name="zim"]I wish the US had free healthcare, I wouldn't mind having my back and my head checked out again..[/quote]

You can wait 5-10 years too.[/quote]



By that time I'll be in a wheel-chair and brain dead.[/quote]

That's what you get when the government owns you.

[quote name="sade"]This is my 'big' experience with the NHS:For the security something like the NHS provides, I'd take what you're considering less freedom any day.[/quote]



Anyone who takes comfort over freedom deserves neither.

It's her definition of freedom that I question.

[quote name="sade"]It's her definition of freedom that I question.[/quote]





Freedom is not being controled by people who don't have our best interest at hearts, the current American system isn't perfect but it sure as hell gives us options and doesn't give us death sentences. Within the current system you're able to seek treatments out and different doctors Obama's system will take this away.

[quote name="abzu"]How would it be less options for someone like my father, who makes too much to qualify for state insurance but cannot get insurance through work and would not be able to afford medical bills?[/quote]



It gives him fewer options because government healthcare will be the only healthcare. All the funding will go to it and snuff out private insurance, with a single system and no competition what incentive do they have to treat consumers right? They only need their foot in the door, this has been seen time and time again.



Also, what incentive does the medical industry have to grow without money? I'm going into nutrition and I will be working in and around healthcare so I think of all these things a lot. (Don't even think of saying for the money, the average dietician makes about 40k a year)

I don't trust the government with my healthcare, not only because they can't handle money worth a shit, but there's no doctor-patient privacy. The government has access to all medical records. Now, I'm not saying they'll do this, but what if the government decides to send an employer medical records on someone looking to get hired? The employer may not hire that person if s/he has a certain condition.

[quote name="sade"]This is my 'big' experience with the NHS:

My sister was diagnosed with leukemia, that day she was taken to a specialist hospital. From that point on my family recieved support (beyond the completely free treatment) from school tutors, free rides to the hospital (an hour away), vacations for my sister around the country, etc... now that's piece of mind.



For the security something like the NHS provides, I'd take what you're considering less freedom any day.



There are just hundreds of thousands of people just wishing they could go get an injury or illness checked out but they put it off so that they can buy their kids the basics while they suffer.



This isn't about growth, competitiveness or whatever the fuck else, it's about having a system that benefits the whole of your community. No one is born in to wealth so they can afford it, no one is born into good health so they never have to worry, people are just born into a system that is fair.



Also, there is private health care here too.. o.o you could always go for that Noyka, make sure your dr is being competitive!![/quote]



I'm glad ya'll had a good experience, I hear about the horror stories all the time like women being denied treatment for breast cancer and I feel my concerns are legit.

[quote name="Noyka"] There will only be extremely poor and the elite, it's not healthy.[/quote]



So whats's new?