Abortion?

[supa tuna]

im sure as fuck not gonna read the novel posted above but check out "the silent scream"

[Abzu]

I would base it on the point in which the nervous system has developed enough to have a conscious thought.

[Verbal]

[quote name="abzu"]I would base it on the point in which the nervous system has developed enough to have a conscious thought.[/quote]



Depending on what you mean by consciousness, that could maybe include "a while" after birth. Would you have a problem with that?

[Verbal]

Would it be better to err on the side of caution?

[Abzu]

[quote name="Johnny"]
[quote name="abzu"]I would base it on the point in which the nervous system has developed enough to have a conscious thought.[/quote]



Depending on what you mean by consciousness, that could maybe include "a while" after birth. Would you have a problem with that? [/quote]

Feti have conscious thought.

[Noyka]

[quote name="hafsteinn"]whats the difference between wearing a condom and killing millions of sperms there and killing one sperm after a few metamorphosis noyka?

In both cases its a brainless matter i.m.o



you cant be for one and against the other.[/quote]



Sperm on it's own can't develop into a being with thought and feeling





Johnny made a good point about the argument.

[Lavabug]

[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="hafsteinn"]whats the difference between wearing a condom and killing millions of sperms there and killing one sperm after a few metamorphosis noyka?

In both cases its a brainless matter i.m.o



you cant be for one and against the other.[/quote]



Sperm on it's own can't develop into a being with thought and feeling





Johnny made a good point about the argument.[/quote]

But who's to say a sperm cell isn't life? I don't see how a zygote has any more thought and feeling than an ovule or a sperm cell. Just because it has half the genetic information of a zygote doesn't make it less of an organism. Just like someone who suffers from chromosome deletion isn't less of a human.



Is the only criteria for considering it "life" the fact that the zygote can multiply and differentiate into a full organism? Because if that's the case, for consistency, you shouldn't support stem cell research in any form either. Just saying.



[quote name="abzu"]

Properly applied birth control methods (including combinations of multiple methods, ie. female birth control + condom on wangux) can fail. There is no fool-proof method aside from abstinence.[/quote]

Btw, be careful how you use this statement, it is often used maliciously to push "abstinence only" sex education in secondary schools in America as well as some religious ass-backwards Latin American countries. While it is technically correct, it's an excuse for not teaching kids about proper birth control, and has been demonstrated to be a retarded and counterproductive approach, as the states in which abstinence only sex ed. is in effect have the highest rates of unwanted teen pregnancies AND STD's. The chances of getting pregnant using pills and condoms is staggeringly low.



Btw I share Gleeso's opinion pretty much in its entirety.

[methodrone]

lava got my point.

[Grudge]

What's all this fuss? Abortion should be legal and not stigmatized.

[Verbal]

I don't think it matters whether or not one chooses to call a sperm "life" or not. Like the debate over whether viruses are "life" or not. It seems to be a pointless discussion and to me misses the point. Why not describe observed characteristics about them? Describe it, say what it does. What it can do. Whether you call it "life" or not doesn't change what it is.

[ANGEL OF DESEASE]

Is sad , considering that a little creature is took off from utero and throw away...very sad...

But, if that creature, is just an error, and parents didn't desire it, and they are not able to be sure of giving him/her a good and normal life, abortion is ok



The most big problem is not abortion good/not good. The big problem is Over-population is some parts of the world, as east and Africa. They don't fuck have the food, but they still make a lot of sons and daughters. They are ignorant, like animals.

[Verbal]

I really can't see how this "overpopulation" reason is any sort of justification.

[ANGEL OF DESEASE]

[quote name="Johnny"]I really can't see how this "overpopulation" reason is any sort of justification.[/quote]





for abortion???



No wait, I was talking about another situation. I consider abortion good for example if parents are poor, drugs addicted and things like this.....( IN THE WEST)

I consider that not abortion, but CALM DOWN making sons in the third world, is very important. They don't have food and they still make a lot of sons.

[methodrone]

Sons of the west





I can hear the music already

[Lavabug]

[quote name="ANGEL OF DESEASE"]

I consider that not abortion, but CALM DOWN making sons in the third world, is very important. They don't have food and they still make a lot of sons.[/quote]

The proper solution is education + availability of contraceptives in the third world. But there's a big worldwide crime organization that is determined to stop this from happening. Can you guess who it is? Hint: it's based in a country within your own country.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Lavabug"]
[quote name="abzu"]

Properly applied birth control methods (including combinations of multiple methods, ie. female birth control + condom on wangux) can fail. There is no fool-proof method aside from abstinence.[/quote]

Btw, be careful how you use this statement, it is often used maliciously to push "abstinence only" sex education in secondary schools in America as well as some religious ass-backwards Latin American countries. While it is technically correct, it's an excuse for not teaching kids about proper birth control, and has been demonstrated to be a retarded and counterproductive approach, as the states in which abstinence only sex ed. is in effect have the highest rates of unwanted teen pregnancies AND STD's. The chances of getting pregnant using pills and condoms is staggeringly low.[/quote]

Ugh yeah they love to twist that tidbit in their favor, don't they?



The chances may be low, but, as I've proven in younger days, the chances weren't low enough. The chance exists and is real.

[Abzu]

[quote name="ANGEL OF DESEASE"]Is sad , considering that a little creature is took off from utero and throw away...very sad...

But, if that creature, is just an error, and parents didn't desire it, and they are not able to be sure of giving him/her a good and normal life, abortion is ok



The most big problem is not abortion good/not good. The big problem is Over-population is some parts of the world, as east and Africa. They don't fuck have the food, but they still make a lot of sons and daughters. They are ignorant, like animals.[/quote]

[Teresa]

[quote name="ManOfSteel"]What's all this fuss? Abortion should be legal and not stigmatized.[/quote]

end of story

[Abzu]

[quote name="Teresa"]
[quote name="ManOfSteel"]What's all this fuss? Abortion should be legal and not stigmatized.[/quote]

end of story[/quote]

[Noyka]

[quote name="Lavabug"]
[quote name="Noyka"]
[quote name="hafsteinn"]whats the difference between wearing a condom and killing millions of sperms there and killing one sperm after a few metamorphosis noyka?

In both cases its a brainless matter i.m.o



you cant be for one and against the other.[/quote]



Sperm on it's own can't develop into a being with thought and feeling





Johnny made a good point about the argument.[/quote]

But who's to say a sperm cell isn't life? I don't see how a zygote has any more thought and feeling than an ovule or a sperm cell. Just because it has half the genetic information of a zygote doesn't make it less of an organism. Just like someone who suffers from chromosome deletion isn't less of a human.



Is the only criteria for considering it "life" the fact that the zygote can multiply and differentiate into a full organism? Because if that's the case, for consistency, you shouldn't support stem cell research in any form either. Just saying.



[/quote]





I said it can form into a life that has thought and feeling. Nobody has a right to deny a being life especially for reasons that are fruitless in a lot of cases (not all). Since abortion is already legal there needs to be serious regulation and limitations. It should never replace individual responsibility. I consider it life because from the moment it is conceived it is using energy from the mother it's almost like a parasite unlike an egg or a sperm which are formed by the parents.

[Lavabug]

I consider both zygotes and gametes life, and in particular human life. The reason I don't feel anything towards a matured bundle of cells is because it does not experience pain, is incapable of cognition, etc. Termination of a pregnancy in the early stages poses no moral dilemma for me, nothing suffers.

[Noyka]

But it has potential, why should it be okay to create all this and destroy it without a second thought?



Isn't that taking away responsibility in our society?

[Lavabug]

Responsibility for what? How is terminating a pregnancy -a non-suffering-inducing activity- irresponsible? It's a decision like any other in life, people are free to choose.



Aren't you a libertarian? I shouldn't have to brief you on individual rights. Keep gov't OUT of my uterus!!

[Noyka]

I am a libertarian and I am pro fetal rights as well. I won't convince you it's life and you won't convince me it doesn't have the right to become a living breathing human being. Abortion should not be the go to method of birth control. That's what I'm mainly against and why I feel it should be very limited.



It takes away responsibility beause the more mainstream abortions become the less value we have on life, what's to stop people from taking the next step and allowing late term abortions? "THAT WON'T HAPPEN" 20 years ago they were probably saying the same thing about abortions in general. The fringe is already saying that people should have up to two years to decide if their children can live or not. I don't want to sound like a crazy person but I am fearful that this loss of value of life will affect society even more.





I have a brother who has downsyndrome and autism, I myself have a form of autism so I think about where reproduction "rights" are going as we learn more and more ways to fool with nature. I agree abortion should be an option but not the first option I would be against an outright outlawing of it. However what it may lead to is what really concerns me which is why I say we need to limit it and promote safe sex including, yes, sex education in schools.



Your rights end when they impede on the rights of others

[Abzu]

It's nice to preach personal responsibility (I do it all the damn time) but let's be realistic... when talking on policy that affects more than your self, you have to be realistic and note that personal responsibility is the exception, not the rule in our species.

[Noyka]

If people were actually taught to think and be independant it wouldn't be.



"THAT'S IDEALISTIC" Maybe now but in the future who knows it might not be.



We liberate ourselves from ourselves through understanding and learning. Abortion in my mind, is a huge part of this. I've thought about the entire topic a lot and the manipulation of life it might lead to. I don't know if we should even think about touching some of those with a 10 foot poll. I mean fertalizing eggs and destroying them because one baby has blue eyes and another doesn't? How wil lour species survive if we choose our traits and we choose our genes. What mutations are going to come from this? Abortion is part of an agenda for some, for most I think it's a genuine "rights" issue (it is with me to, the right to live) I don't think anyone on this board understands why I jump from abortion to gene manipulation (and more realisticly the devaluing of life) because my thought process is a lot different than most of yours and I do tend to rant but to me and others it is a real concern.



You're right Abzu there are people who will always be irresponsible. If they were actually you know taught to understand that it's not okay what they're doing I think we might be in a different place. It's a problem, coddling people. Yes we need compassion but we need to balance this compassion with logic and protecting our society, or what's left of it.

[Lavabug]

I am a libertarian and I am pro fetal rights as well. I won't convince you it's life and you won't convince me it doesn't have the right to become a living breathing human being.



Your rights end when they impede on the rights of others

But I do agree it is life, did you not read what I said? But being technically alive as gleeso puts it doesn't necessarily make it worthy of consideration/rights. A clot of cells with no or an extremely undeveloped central nervous system can barely be called an individual, and is not entitled to rights imo. The only way one could do this for an early stage fetus if it one attributes a magical "soul" to it.

Abortion should not be the go to method of birth control.

Agreed, but in the case of failed contraception, health risks, or another decent reason, abortion should not be rammed home as something wrong, murderous and evil. Contraception starts wtih prevention indeed. If proper sex ed. and contraception was available more easily, the number of abortions would be staggeringly low.



Isn't it infuriating that the social groups that try to get abortion banned are also the same groups that are roadblocks to proper sex ed. and contraceptive availability? First they sow the seeds of ignorance about contraception that leads to unwanted pregnancies in young people, then they try to block the "plan B" solution for the problem they created. How asinine.

[Noyka]

That's because people don't realize if children are thought to be mature about sex then they're more likely to have some sort of common sense about it.



"IT doesn't have a nervous system" nor do bugs or flatworms but they're very much alive. I guess I just don't see much difference in potential life (meaning it can become a human being) and "life".



I said there are situations it's needed but I feel abortion is abused.